only here wrote:arrison, did they not have ESL when you were growing up? it's been around for a long time. i have heard mixed reactions to the program. some ESL students have a hard time adjusting to english speaking classes.

of course there is mixed success and reactions to the program. what public education program doesn't have mixed success? there are good and bad teachers. some districts have great funding for the program, others do not. some areas have a high percentage of immigrants, and the funding is increased. i would even venture to say some areas have a very ethnocentric bias and they don't fund it even though they should.. the city of harrisonburg, virginia and surrounding rockingham county is a perfect example. a good portion of the poultry meat that americans eat come out of this valley. the majority of the grunt work is performed by mexican/hispanic immigrants, legal or not. the public school system there does not have the greatest ESOL programs (ten years ago when I graduated college there it certainly was sub par, it may have changed recently). back then given the lack of funding for the program and the communication disconnect and insidious racism towards the hispanic population by the rich white population, there was a big problem. severe poverty in the hispanic population, with very little chance of change. do you think the immigrants in the enclaves here have some "spare time" and change to take a language class? the ESOL program was meant to bridge the gap by educating the children of this population in their native language, AND to introduce english into the daily lives of these immigrants.

also, the "mixed success" could come from a variety of other issues not related to the program. parental support can be difficult when the parents are forced to work two or three minimum wage jobs to put food on the table. this obviously affects the children living in these households..

i guess my overall point is if the american economy is indebted to "illegal immigrants" or whatever, we need to offer as a public service to them these types of programs. otherwise, we are exploiting them.

have you read Reefer Madness by Eric Schlosser? he touches a great deal on how the economy of the entire state of California would tank without the illegal immigrant workforce. he's got tons of facts. a recommended read indeed.

steve wrote:Those who benefit from speaking english, which is the default language of national and international commerce, will surely learn it. Those who are content to live within a local sphere should not be compelled to do so.

I do not favor compelling anyone to learn language by law, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the widespread damage caused by mass illiteracy and pretend that this illiteracy lies safely ensconced within "local spheres."

steve wrote:Is it a good idea for immigrants to learn english? Probably.

I agree. And, freed from nuance, millions of nationalist or racist dimwits bleat essentially the same message. Yuck. But, nonetheless, true.

steve wrote:My generation speaks only English and Fake Italian. I feel like I lost a little something there.

Boy, do I hear you there. My paternal grandparents (Polish/Bohemian) actively discouraged learning of any Polish or Czech and the maternal ones (Puerto Rican/Spanish) liked to pretend, publicly and privately, that they weren't hispanics. The lack of additional language in my youth was the result of the decisions of my grandparents and parents.

These decisions were lame because I found that the mass of nationalist/racist dimwits they faced had everything to do with their choice. My family did not wish to "stick out" in the society-at-large.

My point is that this pan-generational mass of idiots has far too much influence on every position in the spectrum of argument over this issue, that we should not rhetoricize against a good idea just as we should not cave in to herding pressure.

-r

mr.arrison wrote:i guess my overall point is if the american economy is indebted to "illegal immigrants" or whatever, we need to offer as a public service to them these types of programs. otherwise, we are exploiting them.

have you read Reefer Madness by Eric Schlosser? he touches a great deal on how the economy of the entire state of California would tank without the illegal immigrant workforce. he's got tons of facts. a recommended read indeed.

no, i haven't read it, but i agree with the basic premise. having an illegal immigrant workforce has been very beneficial to america's economy. we're making lots of money off of them. and if money was all i cared about, i wouldn't feel guilty that i lived in a land that looks the other way while the country of mexico continues to abuse/exploit its legal workforce while pawning its problems off on us with illegals.

warmowski wrote:We should not rhetoricize against a good idea just as we should not cave in to herding pressure.

When our Presidentine says to an English-speaking audience of citizens, "immigrants should learn English," I don't hear that the same way as when an immigrant says that to his fellows. You could say it is a "good idea," but that is taking the literal meaning of the words purely at face value, and they were not said with that intent, nor listened-to with that understanding.

I agree it is a "good idea" for immigrants to "learn English," just as I agree (to quote our Presidentine again), that we need to "unite our country," "leave no child behind" and "preserve our freedoms." Those are all "good ideas," taken on their literal meanings' merits. That's not at all what the debate is about though, as you recognize it isn't in the case of any of those other phrases.

I will fight this fucker even when he uses language that is unassailable, because he means to undo our country's inherent goodness.

i wish that i was raised in a multi lingual society..
kinda crap how most countries have been forced to adapt to our english speaking yet we refuse to adapt to thiers,
me personally, would like to be able to know the difference between cantonese and thai, which all sounds like chatter to me, cos i only know how to speak australian.. throw another snag on the barbie, mate (cos bbq'ing shrimps is for fuckwits)

The problem with this problem is that there is no real problem.

Even with no "official" status, 97% of US residents speak English "well" or "very well". There is absolutely no existing evidence to suggest that that number would be higher if English would be made mandatory. In Spain, for example, Castillan was enforced for decades under the Franco regime, under penalty of prison. Today, less than 90% speak fluent Castillan, the rest speak Basque, Catalan, and about a dozen others.

In fact, groups like English Now, US English, and ProEnglish.org have consistantly lobbied hard against state and federal legislation that would provide tax subsidies to business that offer ESL education to their employees. These folks are not interested in the cultural advancement of minorities: they are interested in the further marginalization of them.

FMajcinek wrote:The problem with this problem is that there is no real problem.
These folks are not interested in the cultural advancement of minorities: they are interested in the further marginalization of them.

true. well said.

clocker bob wrote:

Cunningham wrote: the old drummer for our band was this black gangster guy (insane drummer, bordering on the rediculous). He used to mouth off all the time about how well mexicans are doing in this country and that they took all the jobs away from the blacks, who were born here. I always wanted to tell him TOUGH TITTIES, if someone will worker harder than you for less money, then either step it up or fuck right off.

A couple distinctions.

If someone works harder than you because, wherever they are in America, it's better than where they were in Mexico, so they will do whatever they're told for whatever they're paid and never complain, that person is not outworking the American worker- that person is just more scared and desperate than the American worker.

"Step it up or fuck right off"? Make me compete against somebody playing by the same rules, and that's fine.

The same rules? This is a bit vague. Last I checked, the socialist ideology you are suggesting knows no borders. Are we so insulated from the world that we've developed our own understanding of what hard work is? These people are not driven as much by fear as you might think. Having worked with many, I can say that work hard just because they do. The idea of the overbearing manager which dictates your every move is a bit overblown. Usually, managers don't have to say anything because work is simply understood in a different way with many hispanics. I don't mean to stereotype, but its pretty much omnipresent at any restaurant job in southern california. It seems like a copout to say that someone is playing by different rules than you in regards to hard work. They play by the same rules, are of equal intelligence, and are equally strong physically. Your ass is getting kicked because of your indifference to the job. Many just have more drive than you to be successful at a meanial job. They aren't as spoiled and don't take their job for granted. Same rules, same playing field, different work ethic.

clocker bob wrote:

Cunningham wrote:I have firsthand experience with this working as a busser in nice restaurants. All of the illegals I worked with had the most unbelievable work ethic. Most had multitasking abilites that were outta control. On top of that, most had at least three jobs and worked 12 hours a day without a day off.

Is that a good thing? Is that schedule good for an American worker? Allegedly, unrestricted free market capitalism is supposed to provide a decent quality of life for everyone, even those on the bottom rung. If you could look at the books of the nice restaurants you worked at, how would you feel about the way the profits were divided up between labor and management?

I'm not talking about some socialist dream world. I'm talking about, if there is a job to be done, and you take it and show up and do that job well, you should expect to make enough with that one job to:

Eat. Sleep indoors. Pay your transportation costs. Clothe yourself. Afford basic health insurance.

Bussing tables forty hours a week in America should get you that, but you're screwed on the health care, probably. The Mexicans are not driving down your busboy wages much, because you're probably not far from minimum wage, but think about the guy who used to hang drywall or do mud and tape for $15 to $20 an hour, and now the market is frozen at $9.50 an hour forever.

The labor market has been permanently restructured by a flood of disorganized labor. Trades do need union protection to counterbalance the competitive advantage owned by demand side of labor, and illegals can't unionize because they're toast if they do.

There are indeed problems with illegal immigration. I'm not going to make the case that it's uniformly good. I just get pissed when people criticize the immigrants for not wanting to pay taxes or for sending their money back to Mexico. I get emotional even because, living in southern california, I have to hear about this issue day in day out. Those who suggest that all immigrants be required to learn english are usually racist in one way or another. This is what I'm seeing all the time. This is what I overhear every day. There are problems with depressed wages, but I don't necessarily think that its entirely due to illegal immigration, and not to the degree of $5.00 an hour for any job. Cesar Chavez was against illegal immigration for the very reasons you have stated, I understand and agree with his point. How can a strike be effective when non-union illegal immigrants will work? I don't know how to solve this. Close the borders? Nice idea in some ways but expensive.

clocker bob wrote:

Cunningham wrote:These minutemen are racists scumbags of the worst kind. They operate within the law, but they're still racist.

Why is your argument with them? They don't make the laws, you said so yourself. Do you advocate open borders and complete amnesty?

So these people dedicate their time and money to protecting the borders out of the goodness of their heart? These people are putting up barb wire along the border because of some larger purpose? More like, these people are from the lakeside, el centro areas (large skinhead and neo nazi populations) and are just racist rednecks who get a kick out of being macho assholes against illegal immigrants under the guise of protecting our borders. They are assholes. Some Aryan brother got replaced by a Mexican at McDonalds and there you go... Minutemen. Makes sense to me anyways. And no I'm not for complete amnesty.

Eh... what the fuck do I know?

only here wrote:

Cunningham wrote:Living in San Diego, I hear people mouth off about this shit all the time. To those who are criticizing illegal immigrants... please SHUT.THE.FUCK.UP. You do not know what you are talking about and are dealing entirely in generalities.

I've been to Tijuana many times and I can tell you, its the SHITTER. Corrupt, diseased, starving, sometimes dangerous. Why anyone would want to leave? My God! I just can't get my head around it! If i lived there I would tunnel my ass outta there with a spoon with the quickness... no doubt in my mind.

no one here has said anything favorable about tijuana. you're getting over-emotional. let's discuss it.

yea, I am. My temper flares when I hear people spout ignorant shit about mexicans not wanting to learn english and the like... bums me out 'cause I hear it all the time from rich people. Sorry for my "tone".

only here wrote:

Many send their earnings back to their families in Mexico anyways.

that's why mexico likes the status quo. it's a win-win situation for presidente fox as long as he keeps the people poor and hungry, he will still benefit from all the workers moving to usa.

Yea, it's a political and economic problem for sure. I just want people to lay off the immigrants for it, i understand completely why they do it. I don't have a solution. I'll admit that. Fox likes our money in his economy.

only here wrote:

Looking out my window I can see two corners where Mexicans stand every morning looking for work. Those guys aren't as cheap as you'd think, most won't work for less than 12-13 dollars an hour doing construction. Thats still shit, but not in the 5 dollar range.

marsupial made that same point. it's noted. illegals make up a wide spectrum of the work force. i'm still concerned that day-workers are vulnerable to exploitation by corrupt managers and selective law enforcement. it's all because we let it happen before our very eyes.

sorry, i didn't read his post. I read, got bummed, wrote some shit. Exploitation and corrupt are loaded words. Sometimes things are fair, sometimes they aren't. Law enforcement though, definitley. Racial profiling is what's hot 'round these parts.

only here wrote:

if someone will worker harder than you for less money, then either step it up or fuck right off. I have firsthand experience with this working as a busser in nice restaurants. All of the illegals I worked with had the most unbelievable work ethic. Most had multitasking abilites that were outta control. On top of that, most had at least three jobs and worked 12 hours a day without a day off. I knew I couldn't hang with them, so I tried harder and got better at the job in 3 days than I could have in 3 weeks normally because of the competition.

i want good workers to come here and work legally too. current policy prevents that from happening smoothly. what's the solution?

and unarmedman, necesitas aprender espanol amigo. es el futuro.

Yes, working here legally is good. Thats noted. I don't know what the solution is. I just get bummed on the overt racism underlying the debate, thats all. Border control hawks are usually racist around here. I'm just calling it like i see it. Maybe I live in a bubble... I dunno. That might not be so bad, as long as it was a cool looking bubble and I got fed enough.

clocker bob wrote:"Step it up or fuck right off"? Make me compete against somebody playing by the same rules, and that's fine.

Cunningham wrote:The same rules? This is a bit vague.

It is vague on my part.

When I refer to "playing by the same rules", I mean I don't want illegal immigrants giving back gains to the employers that were hard-won by generation after generation of working class Americans, including many legal immigrants, including many legal immigrants from Mexico. It's like the illegal immigrants have met the employers for a secret handshake labor contract behind the building, and the contract then becomes enforceable on everyone who works in the field flooded by cheap illegal labor.

It disembowels the union from within like a virus. It makes every job a piece work go nowhere treadmill; you permanently lose your right to advance or earn better, because without a unified work force, you have no leverage.

I should say that my complaint is far more applicable to work in the trades than in restaurants- restaurants have never used unionization to nearly the same degree in order to improve their standard of living.

Cunningham wrote:Last I checked, the socialist ideology you are suggesting knows no borders. Are we so insulated from the world that we've developed our own understanding of what hard work is?

No, but before Reaganism and outsourcing and unchecked immigration, hard working Americans were insulated from competing for their livelihoods with workers from countries who had not reaped the benefits of American economic success.

If capitalism was never intended to lift all boats, then it should have never pretended to for as long as it did, because now those in the sinking boats feel very cheated.

There is a sense of entitlement in my complaint, there's no denying that. I'm not preaching socialism, but I am preaching making the system reward all hard working Americans, and there's no mystery to determining that level of reward. If it's pouring on the mansions but there's a drought in the tenements, then the system has made the American Dream nothing but a dream of survival for the lowest 20%, and the sense that something is gaining on them is well felt in the middle class, too.

Cunningham wrote:These people are not driven as much by fear as you might think. Having worked with many, I can say that work hard just because they do. The idea of the overbearing manager which dictates your every move is a bit overblown. Usually, managers don't have to say anything because work is simply understood in a different way with many hispanics. I don't mean to stereotype, but its pretty much omnipresent at any restaurant job in southern california. It seems like a copout to say that someone is playing by different rules than you in regards to hard work. They play by the same rules, are of equal intelligence, and are equally strong physically. Your ass is getting kicked because of your indifference to the job. Many just have more drive than you to be successful at a meanial job. They aren't as spoiled and don't take their job for granted. Same rules, same playing field, different work ethic.

A job should not be taken for granted, but neither should one's labor be taken for granted, and in many fields, employers have the option of taking labor for granted because there's a pool of undocumenteds in the Wal Mart parking lot willing to accept sharply less than the prevailing wage. They're scabs.

I know conventional wisdom is that unions exist to let workers sit on their ass, but that's utter bullshit. The infrastructure of our country, the buildings, the roads, all built by skilled union labor who earned a wage
commensurate with the value that they contributed to the economy.

Nobody went out of business hiring union workers and their work ethic was plenty good enough. The auto factories and steel mills and so on shut down because cheap labor goods were permitted to flood our shores. Who made that happen?

Not the unions.

Cars were always fairly priced, and any working man could afford a Chevrolet or a Ford. American-made goods were always within reach of American consumers when American consumers held jobs that paid American wages.

Now, the CEO's earn more in a day than the assembly line workers earn in a year. That didn't happen because, all of a sudden, American workers became unproductive and cost-inefficient. That happened because of the global economy, which is nothing but an organized attack on labor and human dignity.

Cunningham wrote:There are indeed problems with illegal immigration. I'm not going to make the case that it's uniformly good. ...

Cesar Chavez was against illegal immigration for the very reasons you have stated, I understand and agree with his point. How can a strike be effective when non-union illegal immigrants will work? I don't know how to solve this. Close the borders? Nice idea in some ways but expensive.

I support overthrowing the Castillian gangsters who stole Mexico from the
true mestizos, adding all of Mexico to America, covering them under our
minimum wage and labor laws, and then sending in the unions to organize - we can police the Guatemalan border, it's much shorter.

Cunningham wrote:These minutemen are racists scumbags of the worst kind. They operate within the law, but they're still racist.

clocker bob wrote:Why is your argument with them? They don't make the laws, you said so yourself. Do you advocate open borders and complete amnesty?

Cunningham wrote:So these people dedicate their time and money to protecting the borders out of the goodness of their heart? These people are putting up barb wire along the border because of some larger purpose? More like, these people are from the lakeside, el centro areas (large skinhead and neo nazi populations) and are just racist rednecks who get a kick out of being macho assholes against illegal immigrants under the guise of protecting our borders. They are assholes. Some Aryan brother got replaced by a Mexican at McDonalds and there you go... Minutemen. Makes sense to me anyways. And no I'm not for complete amnesty.

Eh... what the fuck do I know?

Well, are you willing to allow real US agencies to police the border for real? Are you against the goals of the minutemen or against the people who join the movement?