Anthony Flack wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 6:16 pm Arthur C. Clarke's main scientific claim to fame is that he was the first to speculate that satellites in geostationary orbit could be used as relays for radio communication. This turned out to be an excellent idea. It wasn't science fiction though; he published it as a research paper. On the other hand, he also hosted that stupid "Arthur C. Clarke's World of Strange Powers" TV show.

rsmurphy wrote: Also, it was previously mentioned that UAP is strictly an American phenomenon and that's patently false.

This would imply that not only is the US government covering it all up, but every other government in the world is as well, and successfully too.

Don't recall if it was you or a different poster who inquired why do these alleged spacecrafts only visit America. I'm just reporting the facts, as it were.

If UFOlogists want their work to be taken seriously, they should start from the position that whatever they are looking at is most likely to not be aliens.

People do take their work seriously, and they do start from the position that it probably isn't aliens. Seems like you are the one listening to the crackpots.

I'm having a difficult time understanding why this triggers you so much. A healthy amount of skepticism is welcome, but you seem chapped and eager to paint the entire movement as ridiculous.

rsmurphy wrote:

Anthony Flack wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 6:16 pm Arthur C. Clarke's main scientific claim to fame is that he was the first to speculate that satellites in geostationary orbit could be used as relays for radio communication. This turned out to be an excellent idea. It wasn't science fiction though; he published it as a research paper. On the other hand, he also hosted that stupid "Arthur C. Clarke's World of Strange Powers" TV show.

rsmurphy wrote: Also, it was previously mentioned that UAP is strictly an American phenomenon and that's patently false.

This would imply that not only is the US government covering it all up, but every other government in the world is as well, and successfully too.

Don't recall if it was you or a different poster who inquired why do these alleged spacecrafts only visit America. I'm just reporting the facts, as it were.

If UFOlogists want their work to be taken seriously, they should start from the position that whatever they are looking at is most likely to not be aliens.

People do take their work seriously, and they do start from the position that it probably isn't aliens. Seems like you are the one listening to the crackpots.

I'm having a difficult time understanding why this triggers you so much. A healthy amount of skepticism is welcome, but you seem chapped and eager to paint the entire movement as ridiculous.

rsmurphy wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 3:36 pm

biscuitdough wrote:So you're saying there's not a something like 90-100% overlap between these two groups?

What I am saying is there are dedicated astrophysicists, philosophers, and scientists interested in the phenomena of intelligent life outside of Earth and/or a possibility for said intelligence to traverse vast distances of space and time. Does that make sense at all? Sometimes putting thoughts to paper for me can get jumbled so I want to be sure I'm being as clear as possible.

SETI isn't ridiculous. The people who think creepy aliens are behind 20th-21st century humanity's problems are ridiculous.

biscuitdough wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 6:02 pm SETI isn't ridiculous. The people who think creepy aliens are behind 20th-21st century humanity's problems are ridiculous.

Nobody in this thread has made that assumption. I thought we had gotten past the point where one could have a legitimate discussion about UAP and intelligent life outside of Earth without being labelled as unserious or a charlatan.

Not sure why this subject seems to bring out so much vitriol, some folks feeling good about themselves here by being dicks.

I personally have felt for a long time like with the number of sightings that are out there (and have been for a long long time) that something is probably happening that we don't understand, but I always felt like the idea of our government executing the kind of coverup that's been alleged would be extremely far fetched, given how hard it would be to maintain that type of secrecy.

But honestly, our government seems to be able to keep new airplanes and other military technology pretty under wraps. And the other thing is - they haven't really been able to keep the secret.

There are more than a few former fairly high level military leaders who have come out to say that we have had contact. Maybe it's disinformation - this is not unbelievable, but I don't understand then what is happening with David Grusch. The number of people with first-hand knowledge of this program who have been reported to have come to him looking to have their stories told (several of whom who have also given testimony to the Senate Intelligence Committee, resulting in Schumer's addition to the NDAA bill) are hard for me to file away under disinformation. I can't find the angle - which, I'll admit doesn't mean it's not there. But I haven't heard a more reasonable explanation than that maybe it's true so far.

Some projecting going on upthread.

Ufology isn't solely/necessarily the province of crackpots.

Let's not forget that rather strait-laced former U.S. presidents have claimed to have seen UFOs. And there have been mass incidents, like the one in Michigan profiled in a recent episode of the Unsolved Mysteries reboot, or the aforementioned one involving African school kids. All of this can't be written off as mere tinfoil hat wankery from people with too much time on their hands or a desire to sell books.

BrendanK wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 6:54 pm Not sure why this subject seems to bring out so much vitriol, some folks feeling good about themselves here by being dicks.

The discussion of alien life/UFOs might be in the 'not good dinner table conversation' category along with politics and religion. My wife and my father in law got slightly heated discussing this very topic a couple days ago. She had the 'something might be going on here, you never know' angle some folks on here have, and he had the 'don't give me any of that bullshit' that others do.

What gets me is that the movements of these crafts can't be explained. They disappear and then reappear. Leslie Kean's book is a good primer if you're new to this stuff. This is a very real phenomenon - but what's really going on here?

I don't think these are extraterrestrials. They're probably fallen angels, like in Genesis 6. There's a lot of speculation in prophecy circles that the "strong delusion" of 2 Thessalonians 2 will be a fake alien invasion perpetrated by fallen angels.

rsmurphy wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 5:54 pm I'm having a difficult time understanding why this triggers you so much. A healthy amount of skepticism is welcome, but you seem chapped and eager to paint the entire movement as ridiculous.

Because the US Congress just hosted a big fat UFO clown show and now everybody is talking like we've got crashed fucking spaceships hidden in government bunkers. "We always knew... this just proves it."

Calling it a "movement" is about right, I think.

Look at all the incredible work being done by real scientists, while people only get excited about bullshit. Imagine watching the world's scientific community going to such extraordinary length to detect a single microbe of extraterrestrial origin, a single radio signal, a single ANYTHING, while believing that the US government has a stockpile of alien spaceships, dead alien pilots, the works. If only they knew! Hey scientific community, yeah we made contact with an alien civilisation ages ago. Yeah, we just never told any of you. Only the military knows. Anyway, have fun doing your little experiments, but I guess you've been wasting your careers. Too bad.

The idea of sending a probe to Enceladus to detect microbes is made ridiculous by the notion that we've had E.T. lying on a slab at Roswell this whole time.

And like I say, if the spaceships aren't just crashing into the United States, that would imply EVERYBODY's got secret bunkers full of spaceships which the entire scientific community remain clueless about.

You called me a cynic earlier. I'm not a cynic. I see the way everybody has been shitting on recent advances in AI, now that is some cynicism.

It's funny too, how much detail we get in the eye-witness reports, when describing what these ships look like (although everybody says something different). And yet cameras and telescopes never seem to capture anything more than a speck or a smudge that could be literally anything. A whole lot of detailed descriptions and not a single detailed picture. Even though everyone's got a camera in their pocket these days, and the cameras are getting better and better, the quality of the footage has never improved.

Anthony Flack wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 7:49 pm

rsmurphy wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 5:54 pm I'm having a difficult time understanding why this triggers you so much. A healthy amount of skepticism is welcome, but you seem chapped and eager to paint the entire movement as ridiculous.

Because the US Congress just hosted a big fat UFO clown show and now everybody is talking like we've got crashed fucking spaceships hidden in government bunkers. "We always knew... this just proves it."

The main objective, at least from what I could gather, is that they are looking at it as a security issue for the most part. There is a small percentage of things flying around in American airspace that are being noticed by military personnel that they can't explain. We can't just have "alien" craft out there doing unrealistic maneuvers that our military can't explain.

Calling it a "movement" is about right, I think.

Poor choice of words by me.

Look at all the incredible work being done by real scientists, while people only get excited about bullshit. Imagine watching the world's scientific community going to such extraordinary length to detect a single microbe of extraterrestrial origin, a single radio signal, a single ANYTHING, while believing that the US government has a stockpile of alien spaceships, dead alien pilots, the works. If only they knew! Hey scientific community, yeah we made contact with an alien civilisation ages ago. Yeah, we just never told any of you. Only the military knows. Anyway, have fun doing your little experiments, but I guess you've been wasting your careers. Too bad.

You can't actually believe that tangible scientific progress is being dwarfed by the search for alien biologics or damaged spacecraft. You're reaching. I mean, as far as I can tell the hearings were the first of any kind which would be why there was public interest. And it's not like the coverage was tantamount to that of the State Funeral for Her Majesty The Queen. Life in the US didn't stop in rapt attention for disclosure that never happened.

The idea of sending a probe to Enceladus to detect microbes is made ridiculous by the notion that we've had E.T. lying on a slab at Roswell this whole time.

You keep positing that it has to be one or the other, or that genuine curiosity into a lifeless E.T. automatically makes sending probes to distant moons obsolete. Don't worry, I truly believe the majority is on your side concerning hard science and how it will improve our lives.

And like I say, if the spaceships aren't just crashing into the United States, that would imply EVERYBODY's got secret bunkers full of spaceships which the entire scientific community remain clueless about.

It was only this century that most of the world found out about the cultural genocide that happened with Canada's indigenous population. And it's hard for me to even begin to think about how many secrets the US govt is hiding about its past.

You called me a cynic earlier. I'm not a cynic. I see the way everybody has been shitting on recent advances in AI, now that is some cynicism.

I see racists, bigots, homophobes, et al. having the opportunity to inform developments in AI. To me it seems like humanity isn't ready for such a leap in technology.