Premier Rock Forum

Posted: **Wed May 30, 2007 11:37 am**

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu99GRUUN6Y

Laughable. I want to see is jerk do this with somebody who's not a 3 year+ student of his.

Apparently you don't have to travel to China to fall for this bullshit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk

However, Tai Chi is not bullshit!

Check this out:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 2306813918

Dude can bust some funky moves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mwvQrtKeEQ

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/response_to_th ... e_test.htm

Posted: **Wed May 30, 2007 1:58 pm**

Earwicker wrote:I just found this and it amused me a little

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

Sure it's Kiai or something, which is apparently not the same as Chi but it's funny anyway.

Though I do feel for the poor man. Maybe with all his students flinging themselves about like that he thought he really did have it.

It is pretty funny. Appears to be the Eastern version of WWF, "professional wrestling," etc.

I agree that Tai chi chuan (aka "supreme ultimate boxing" or "boundless fist") is legit martial art, but I'm skeptical about some of the health claims.

Someone mentioned Bullshido.net earlier in the thread; it's a good site. From their "about" page:

From the claims of "No Touch Knockouts" and other supernatural abilities, to dishonest business practices and Martial Arts cults, this website and its members intend to serve as more than just an information resource for Martial Artists and laypersons. This site is a virtual meeting place and sounding board for a grass roots movement to restore ethics and realism to systems shrouded in misinformation and irrational mysticism.

The Bullshido network of websites are devoted to one goal: improving the standards in the Martial Arts and applying reason, empiricism, objectivity, and a bit of a sense of humor towards accomplishing this. Some things we take very seriously: fraud, abuse, and endangering people by giving them a false sense of security through substandard or misleading training. Some things, we take with a grain of salt and a dash of laughter: the absurd, comical, and downright silly things people believe or are told in the course of their experiences in Martial Arts. Martial Artists of all experience levels and backgrounds, with an honest conscience and a healthy dose of common sense, are all invited to participate!

Posted: **Wed May 30, 2007 2:32 pm**

newberry wrote:I agree that Tai chi chuan (aka "supreme ultimate boxing" or "boundless fist") is legit martial art, but I'm skeptical about some of the health claims.

Someone mentioned Bullshido.net earlier in the thread; it's a good site.

looks like the "fight club" site to me.

I don't think that qi/chi and tai chi have anything to do with this sensationally "the greatest Martial Arts forum on the entire Internet yet".

btw: even if you negate qi - tai chi is still a very effective gymnastic, thus healthy.

Posted: **Wed May 30, 2007 3:10 pm**

bassdriver wrote:
newberry wrote:I agree that Tai chi chuan (aka "supreme ultimate boxing" or "boundless fist") is legit martial art, but I'm skeptical about some of the health claims.

Someone mentioned Bullshido.net earlier in the thread; it's a good site.

looks like the "fight club" site to me.

You mean www.fightclub.com? Are they interested in distinguishing between real and bogus martial arts claims, or more generally interested in martial arts?

I don't think that qi/chi and tai chi have anything to do with this sensationally "the greatest Martial Arts forum on the entire Internet yet".

Are you referring to bullshido.net? If so, I do think they cover chi and tai chi. Or are you referring to a different forum?

btw: even if you negate qi - tai chi is still a very effective gymnastic, thus healthy.

I have no doubt that Tai chi has real heath benefits. As I said before, I'm skeptical of some of them (diabetes, MS, Alzheimers, etc.) But if it is prove that Tai chi can effectively treat these conditions, that would be awesome--I'm all for it.

Posted: **Wed May 30, 2007 3:22 pm**

As far as the debate that was going about Eastern/indigenous medicine vs Western medicine, one thing I do not think was mentioned was the duration of medicinal use. Most Eastern and indigenous (incl. shamanic/homeopathic) medicines are to be used only for the duration of the illness, often as a one-time dosage. In other words, it is intended to rectify disorders. Some of these substances must be unhealthy if taken on a regular basis for a long time. A lot of modern "supplements" that are out now, using Kava, Yohimbe, etc. are being sold as part of a daily regimen, to be taken like Western medicine: all the time or you get "sick" again. This would create a buildup in the organs that I'm sure can be hazardous.

Posted: **Wed May 30, 2007 3:34 pm**

Most Eastern and indigenous (incl. shamanic/homeopathic) medicines are to be used only for the duration of the illness, often as a one-time dosage.

That's true with homeopathy? I thought it was common to take homeopathic remedies as often as needed--is that not true? I'm sure that homeopathic remedies won't build up toxins, as the active ingredients are diluted to such an extreme degree that usually there is not a single molecule present:

The dilution factor at each stage is traditionally 1:10 ('D' or 'X' potencies) or 1:100 ('C' potencies). Hahnemann advocated 30C dilutions for most purposes, i.e. dilution by a factor of 10030 = 1060. As Avogadro's number is only 6.02 × 1023 particles/mole, the chance of any molecule of the original substance being present in a 15C solution is small, and it is extremely unlikely that one molecule of the original solution would be present in a 30C dilution...Furthermore, 1CC of a solute diluted to a 30C dilution would be diluted into a volume of solvent (water) equal to that of a cube of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 meters per side, or about 105 light years. Thus, even homeopathic remedies of a high "potency" contain, with overwhelming probability, only water. Practitioners of homeopathy believe that this water retains some 'essential property' of one of the substances that it has contacted in the past.

eta: I've heard it's not uncommon to find products labeled "homeopathic" even though they have significant quantities of (not highly diluted) plant extracts or herbs or whatever. This kind of product could possibly cause toxic buildup or other side effects.

Posted: **Wed May 30, 2007 3:48 pm**

I may have misused the word "homeopathic."

Posted: **Wed May 30, 2007 4:02 pm**

newberry wrote:You mean www.fightclub.com? Are they interested in distinguishing between real and bogus martial arts claims, or more generally interested in martial arts?

no I just made this "fight club" thing up. bogus martial arts? the old martial arts were forbidden in china for a long time. so most of the forms you see today are "dance" forms that were allowed at the peking opera. lots of martial art forms are not referring to chi.

newberry wrote:I have no doubt that Tai chi has real heath benefits. As I said before, I'm skeptical of some of them (diabetes, MS, Alzheimers, etc.) But if it is prove that Tai chi can effectively treat these conditions, that would be awesome--I'm all for it.

this will for ever be your dilemma. I don't think there will be proof for this phenomenon soon. I think there are things in life that you either ignore or experience by yourself.

Posted: **Wed May 30, 2007 4:47 pm**

I may have misused the word "homeopathic."

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about it.

bogus martial arts? the old martial arts were forbidden in china for a long time. so most of the forms you see today are "dance" forms that were allowed at the peking opera. lots of martial art forms are not referring to chi.

By "bogus," I'm talking about things like "no touch knockouts," as in the youtube video earwicker linked. But I realize that martial arts is much more than that; there are of course real, very effective self-defense techniques, and martial arts is also used in many other ways.

this will for ever be your dilemma. I don't think there will be proof for this phenomenon soon. I think there are things in life that you either ignore or experience by yourself.

In my view any potential health treatments should be examined and tested whenever possible. If Tai chi can cure diabetes, that would be very useful to know. It's important to understand which remedies really work and which don't, so that ill people can get the safest, most effective treatments, and not waste time and money on treatments that are dangerous or ineffective.

Posted: **Wed May 30, 2007 6:22 pm**

bassdriver wrote:I don't think there will be proof for this phenomenon soon. I think there are things in life that you either ignore or experience by yourself.

I've been quite surprised by the result of the poll above and think a lot of it comes down to this argument.
Chi practitioners talk about it as their own experience as opposed to something objectively testable.
This is all well and good and I wouldn't personally dismiss it entirely but this excuse sounds to me remarkably like an argument a religious person would hurl.
My Dad has said almost these exact words about his personal relationship with God blah blah and I wonder how many of the people who have said may the force be with you - in the poll, are aware that they are sitting, if not in the same tent, at least in the same camp as the Christians?

Premier Rock Forum

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever