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Thanks to capnreverb for finally addressing the debate by dealing with Zappa's material. No thanks to the rest of you, who refuse to even mention what these songs are, probably because you didn't listen to any of them. "Broadway the Hard Way" In-fucking-deed!

I think Big Swifty is better than Bitches Brew. I also think, musicologically speaking, that it has qualities that make it a better and more interesting piece of music. Let me explain this before the donkey headed adversary rears it's hind legs in the tired old "this is opinion" crap. People do evaluate pieces of music, and among educated people, there can be a discussion of qualities of a piece of music. Also, in a crap/not crap "debate" (or any debate for that matter) opinions do not matter (I'm talking to you Linus and Placeholder). Who gives a fuck whether Linus likes this or not? What evidence is that? Have you ever been in a debate? Did the opposing team or individual ask you for evidence? According to what I've seen here, this is a crap/not crap debate. Debating opinions is worthless. There is information in music, and one can evaluate music beyond whether one likes it or not.

I fucking hate Shakespeare, Melville, Hemmingway... Nonetheless, what they did was very important (except 5 chapters on the whiteness of the whale. Realism, I fucking get it!!!). Beyond opinions, one can analyze their works. I know I'm going to be called some sort of snob for this. If it's any consolation, I do own 5 hooded sweatshirts (hoodies).

Bitches Brew is very excellent, and I like it a lot. Very very much. I like "Big Swifty" even better, but my opinion is irrelevant. Let's talk about the piece, and why it has merit as something that goes miles beyond Miles (pardon the pun!)

The first minute is the best thing I've heard... a complicated, playful, and quirky intro to the creep-o psychedelic jazz that follows. As good as it is, it is never repeated again. It is the disposable rocket that propels the Big Swifty satellite into space... Then the satellite extends it's antennae and dishes and begins it's cryptic work... What does it do?!? It is searching for new grounds in jazz music that are unexplored, and it discovers them with much success. It goes beyond Bitches Brew, and extends this jazz psychedelia into an ordered and intricate composition with feeling, power, and unexpectedness. The Big Swifty satellite encounters strange beings, and a dialog between the trumpet and guitar begins, only to be interrupted by encounters with extraterrestial musical entities.

The reason I feel Big Swifty is a better acheivement (and yes, it did come out a few years later than Bitches Brew) is that there's much more to it. Bitches Brew kind of hangs out and is very jammy. It's mostly improvised and not through composed. It stays in one mode, and the rhythms never break free. You're cruising at 45 mph the whole time. I enjoy that one when I'm working on something complex, and don't need to think about the music too much...

I am familiar with Miles' work, as well as McLaughlin. Yes, McLaughlin shreds Zappa on guitar. There are better guitarists than FZ. But Zappa is great for his compositional skills. The interplay between the guitar and muted trumpet on that one is just killer. Then the swirls and creshendos of synth sounds that come in and out... Very great. Big Swifty is not a jam session. It's not about improvisation. It's through composed jazz with improvisational elements that fit into a complicated framework.

Well, I'm glad someone was able to directly talk about the material. Thank you capnreverb. I now officially appologize for the capn-douche-bag remark. Too bad it took about 50 posts to get someone to respond to the actual meat of the debate, that I posed 45 posts ago!

Yes, the 2nd song "Your Mouth" isn't good. If you read my post I say this. The 3rd song is OK. You're right. These 3-minute nugget songs are fillers, and probably why people say Zappa is crap. Because these songs are 3 minutes, they may have actually been the only radio playable songs on the album. How sadly ironic!!!

I'll be the first one to say that not everything on those albums I listed is good. It's not so much that it's crap. "Your Mouth" is a well done blues song. I don't personally enjoy the blues, but the musicianship and song writing is better than many blues tunes I have heard. Nonetheless, I usually skip 'em... Not to beat a dead horse, but King Crimson suffer from the "wow this is amazing... uh, this is boring crap" syndrome, in a worse way than Zappa. And I think King Crimson are very good, yet overrated. Fripp was an outspoken advocate of their sound, and people believed him, just like they believe Thom from Radiohead. Edison vs. Tesla continues...

The 2nd and 3rd tracks are 15% of the album. Big Swifty and Waka/Jawaka comprise about 35 minutes of material and are well written jazz compositions. I like these better than Miles, because they're not just some amazing guys jamming... There is improvisation... Don Preston's Moog solo, that you dislike, is improvised, but it fits into key changes that occur at odd times. That's the coolest thing about that solo. It's like bursts of sunlight breaking through the clouds, and then getting occluded again, all in perfect time with a well thought out jazz composition (and not a jam session). This combination of improvisation and composition yields sponteneity in a complex framework. Something Miles was perhaps too high to achieve? Then, if that wasn't enough, bursts of big band horn swells, and vocal arrangments in unison with instruments. Much more to offer in terms of both composition, arrangement, layering, and thoughtfulness.

Thanks to Linus for proving my point that you need to like more music than rock to appreciate Zappa. To quote the Don Caballero music publishing company "not the only music you listen to". I wish more people really believed that! Also touched on my "elitist" point that the same 3 chords are not that interesting, and if you're enamoured with that, you won't get Zappa. Linus is one of the many music fans that like lyrics. Can't say that's wrong. He admits he's content to hear those same 3 chords, as long as the singer is screaming something he wish he had screamed... This is why shows like American Idol are popular. Many people only identify with lyrics. You'll never see Tortoise or Don Cab get on the charts with their sound. The instrumental music of the 90's never "broke". I thought it would, but pop music is all about vocals and attitude, which none of this well composed music could under-achieve.

And Linus effectively skirts the issue of exactly what these songs are. Again, not everything Zappa did on those albums I listed is good. But you could make 10 CD's of excellent Zappa material. King Crimson, maybe 2 (you're pushin' it). Linus, can you at least list these songs, or are you bullshiting? To me, it sounds like you're bullshiting, and I have no evidence otherwise.

And someone mentioned that there aren't many dyed in the wool punks here?

Well... I love Shellac, and deeply respect Steve, Bob, and Todd. I went to one of their shows, and will never go to another. It was "the last show" in NJ, and everyone was heckling them and saying shit about Todd being too thin (I think someone said he had AIDS or something -- really classy!). Shellac had technical difficulties at that show, and people kept on yelling at them and heckling them. Then, Steve and Bob walked into the audience to check on the mixing board problems. No one said anything. These tough hecklers were suddenly really quiet... Like little sissy dogs with their tails between their legs.

I'll never go to another of their shows, despite how much I like them, because the audience ruins it for me. They're asshole magnets, which is a real shame for how intelligent they are. Zappa also attracted a lot of people who didn't really get most of his material. You see this in the movie Baby Snakes. Zappa even shows people who are critical of his "Overnite Sensation" album, where he was accused of selling out.

I would imagine a fair amount of these shit-fuckers are on this board right now, and they have no diversity in terms of music tastes. I'm not talking about everyone here... I'd even say the vast majority of people here are pretty cool. But the Albini world does tend to attact the "This is the only music I listen to. Rock Rock Rock Siss Boom Bah Rah Rah Rah" crowd. Yes, I am fabricating a quote to represent this very real mentality. All's I know is I see a lot of homophobic talk and real evidence of shit-headed ness and intolerance. Then I'm labelled intolerant, because I claim you have to like more than punk rock to understand Zappa, man. (Did you like how I added the hippy "man" thing? It's my placeholder influence, man).

I mean, what is more assholic than someone writing "guh guh guh Gay" as a reply? It seems like a lot of the assholes I encountered at that Shellac show are alive and well, and participating here. Go figure...

It's a shame, but I'll stick to enjoying Shellac via their recordings. A member of two very seminal Chicago bands (one which started in 1981) told me he likes Shellac, but can't go to the shows because of the asshole frat boys. I didn't understand this until 2000, when I experienced this... It would also explain why Shellac had 3 times the draw, and the attendence for Don Cab, Seam, U.S. Maple, Paul Newman, Oxes, etc. was a lot less. I guess those guys don't get as much play at the Sig Ep house, bra'.

This kind of reminds me of how I would be walking down fraternity row in college, and hear "Smells Like Teen Spirit" blasting out of a frat house, while being pelted with empty Keystone cans and being called a "faggot". Extremely ironic... Interesting how some people who only listen to lyrics (because they are unfamiliar with music) don't even understand them. As much as I dislike that Nirvana album, I must say, I do like the opposition to the high school mentality it poses. Too bad that the very people that song is against became their biggest fans!

So to the x% of you that just listen to rock, I'll have to say, you have no business calling Zappa crap. Go back to your 3 chord punk songs with emotional lyrics. In a couple years, most of these bands will be forgotten. In decades, all of them will. Then, much like Bill and Ted's excellent adventure, people will build a great new society based on the great music of Frank Zappa. Poodles and Huskies will be the preferred breeds of dogs.

OK... Next exercise... Anyone want to take on "The Yellow Shark". These are Zappa compositions performed by Germany's Ensemble Modern, a world-reknown democratic collective orchestra that plays music by mostly avant-garde composers. They only play pieces that they agree on playing... They all agreed to play Zappa's compositions. Go to their site and check out what else they perform. Let me know when they decide to play "Nevermind The Bullocks", because I will eat a bucket of poodle shit if that ever happens.

Anyway, I'm going to play drums now. Capnreverb, what do you think of The Yellow Shark? Why is this crap? Specifically... let's be professional with our criticisms, and go beyond "opinions" and talk about the quality and strengths of composition. Give me some good, specific reasons why, and less of the sounds like "Return to Forever". I actually love "Hymn of the 13th Galaxy". Lenny White shreds the drums...

You seem to be a smart fellow, capable of this. You actually have diverse taste in music, and haven't dismissed every genre of music that isn't about making waka-waka on the guitar.

Here's a few other songs (with genres in parens) that I really like. Now, the hi-falutin' Zappa fans like his modern stuff. I do too, but the rockin' stuff is very good... I'm guessing this might be more appealing to some of the crowd here, but I'm probably wrong.

"St. Alphonso's Pancake Breakfast" - (') (psychedelic jazz rock)
"Who needs the Peace Corps" - We're Only In It For The Money (satirical rock)
"Dirty Love" - Overnite Sensation - (funk)
"Exentrifugal Forz" (') - (psychedelic rock)

I hate to use the word "psychedelic", since Zappa did not use illegal, mind-expanding drugs... Just legal ones like caffeine and nicotine...

Ok, time to play the drums and go to dinner with some folks... I'll check in later and see if anyone has anything of substance to say about Zappa's work.

i have heard all of frank zappa's records through _...drowning witch_

back when i worked at a record store, i forced myself to listen to them. i also did this with the grateful dead.

the first few mothers albums have some ok stuff on them, as commentaries on the sixties go. a couple of the songs are maybe 3/4 as good as country joe and the fish, notably lacking their soulfulness.

the rest of the records ranged from dull to excruciating

i think his music is terrible. thoroughly irritating, invariably overcooked, crucially mistaking complexity for sophistication. the humor in it seemed sophomoric to me when i was in seventh grade, and it seemed sophomoric to me when i was a sophomore, and it seemed sophomoric to me a few years after that.

i can't imagine i would like it now. in fact, i heard something in a record store recently (i'm sure it was from 'one of the bad albums'), and it drove me from the place.

So to the x% of you that just listen to rock, I'll have to say, you have no business calling Zappa crap.

i listen to all sorts of things

crap

Wernehm_Zackariaah, who appears to have copied kerble's avatar, wrote:I fucking hate Shakespeare, Melville [and] Hemingway.

Well, good for you!

Now say hello to Mr. Zmed.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:I think Big Swifty is better than Bitches Brew. I also think, musicologically speaking, that it has qualities that make it a better and more interesting piece of music.

What?! You think it has qualities that make it better and more interesting?! So, you can conceive of the possibility that some people might think that those qualities, musicologically speaking, might make it worse, and more tedious? Or do you have some "proof" that all this hypercomplexity makes music better? Or... is that just your opinion? Yes, it is just your opinion.

Let me explain this before the donkey headed adversary rears it's hind legs in the tired old "this is opinion" crap. People do evaluate pieces of music, and among educated people, there can be a discussion of qualities of a piece of music. Also, in a crap/not crap "debate" (or any debate for that matter) opinions do not matter (I'm talking to you Linus and Placeholder). Who gives a fuck whether Linus likes this or not?

I'm sorry, I guess I didn't apply for the pass to explain my vote like everyone else did. Must've missed a memo.

What evidence is that? Have you ever been in a debate? Did the opposing team or individual ask you for evidence? According to what I've seen here, this is a crap/not crap debate. Debating opinions is worthless. There is information in music, and one can evaluate music beyond whether one likes it or not.

Some people would agree with you on this, some would disagree. Unfortunately, everything you say about why Zappa is good is your opinion, so this idea of evaluating music without discussing opinions remains theoretical for now.

(discussion of Big Swifty in detail)

Great. You've explained to us why you like Big Swifty, without saying one word as to why it is "objectively" good. Just like I explained to you why I don't like Zappa. But who gives a fuck what I think? Nobody here ever heard of the band I played keyboards with.

Thanks to Linus for proving my point that you need to like more music than rock to appreciate Zappa.

Ugh. You don't know everything I like and don't like. My point was, Zappa tries so damn hard to impress, and it impresses you, and it doesn't impress me, and I gave some examples of what impresses me. My point was not that I only like rock.

Also touched on my "elitist" point that the same 3 chords are not that interesting, and if you're enamoured with that, you won't get Zappa. Linus is one of the many music fans that like lyrics. Can't say that's wrong. He admits he's content to hear those same 3 chords, as long as the singer is screaming something he wish he had screamed... This is why shows like American Idol are popular. Many people only identify with lyrics. You'll never see Tortoise or Don Cab get on the charts with their sound. The instrumental music of the 90's never "broke". I thought it would, but pop music is all about vocals and attitude, which none of this well composed music could under-achieve.

Jesus H. Christ. Where to even begin... I like music that has more than 3 chords. I like music that has fewer than 3 chords. I don't like all music with screaming. I don't like most music with screaming. I like some, but not all, music with good lyrics. I like some, but not all, music with bad lyrics. I like some, but not all, rap music. I like some, but not all, instrumental music. Hey, show some respect... I played keyboards in an instrumental group. I've played in a jazz group too. I don't like American Idol (and American Idol singers generally don't scream, so there's a little internal inconsistency in your fiction), and I'm not to be held responsible for Tortoise and Don Caballero being kept off the charts. If you think making up stories about what music I'm into will convince people that Zappa is good, go right ahead, but it's nonsense.

And Linus effectively skirts the issue of exactly what these songs are. Again, not everything Zappa did on those albums I listed is good. But you could make 10 CD's of excellent Zappa material. King Crimson, maybe 2 (you're pushin' it). Linus, can you at least list these songs, or are you bullshiting? To me, it sounds like you're bullshiting, and I have no evidence otherwise.

I'm sorry I didn't name the songs. You don't have any reason to believe I'm bullshitting. I've never bullshitted you before; I've never bullshitted anyone before that you know about, so I don't appreciate the skepticism. Anyway, the songs were "Lumpy Gravy Part 1", "The Air", "Absolutely Free", "Tryin' to Grow a Chin", "Broken Hearts are for Assholes", "It Must be a Camel", and "Big Swifty" from Ensemble Ambrosius, not from Waka/Jawaka. Now, if you showed me 5 of the best boxes of chocolates from the same company, and I took one from one, and it tasted like crap, and one from the second box tasted like crap, and so on and so on, I think I could be forgiven for thinking that company makes crappy chocolate. I don't want any more Zappa chocolate, I've got a tummyache.

Ok, time to play the drums and go to dinner with some folks... I'll check in later and see if anyone has anything of substance to say about Zappa's work.

I think you misspelled "agrees with me".

You need to accept that somebody can listen to Zappa, recognize that it's complex, recognize that it's original, recognize that it's unique and influential and artistic and respected by avant garde groups and all that stuff, and still dislike it, and have real reasons for disliking it other than some imagined allegiance to the Sex Pistols.

tmidgett,

Somebody in another thread linked to an article you wrote in which you were able to assign a numerical value to every band based on an equation. What score does Frank Zappa receive on this scale?

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:I fucking hate Shakespeare, Melville, Hemmingway... Nonetheless, what they did was very important (except 5 chapters on the whiteness of the whale. Realism, I fucking get it!!!).

There is one chapter on the whiteness of the whale in Moby-Dick.

Read it: http://www.princeton.edu/~batke/moby/moby_042.html

and tell me what it has to do with "Realism."

Better yet, don't.

But please, don't stop with the feverish fulminations on Zappa.

I don't like Zappa. I used to love Zappa. I have been reformed. I don't think he is worthy of a crap vote because he's not the Eagles or anything but I still think he really sucks. I used to love Zappa. I own probably several dozen Zappa albums, some original vinyl collectibles, several double "you can't do that on stage anymore cd's, etc. Most of his music is emotionless, smug, proficiency exercises. Boring. He's not funny. I used to think he was funny and when I was 19. I know his music is difficult to play and he employs lots of excellent musicians but who fucking cares. Good musicians often play bad music. His sense of harmony is redundant. His counterpoint is terrible. So many unison lines played by instruments who's timbres don't mix well. I'm talking of his "classical" works. Any composition major who thinks they are clever could write this drivel. I don't give a shit if he's published in the real book. I appreciate the fact that he's probably opened some people up to new forms of music and his battles with the PMRCand some of his intelligent political commentary and am certainly not glad he is dead but I doubt he will be remembered as a great composer. It's really smug boring shit.

Hi kids. I'm Wolfman Jack. Here to promote rock n' roll and Clearisil. Do the twist and bleach the zits.

Angus Jung wrote:

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:I fucking hate Shakespeare, Melville, Hemmingway... Nonetheless, what they did was very important (except 5 chapters on the whiteness of the whale. Realism, I fucking get it!!!).

There is one chapter on the whiteness of the whale in Moby-Dick.

Read it: http://www.princeton.edu/~batke/moby/moby_042.html

and tell me what it has to do with "Realism."

Better yet, don't.

But please, don't stop with the feverish fulminations on Zappa.

There is one chapter titled "whiteness of the whale" but several more that go on about how fucking white this whale is. And that's all the chapter is about. I haven't read it in 16 years, but I specifically remember how much I hated it, and how there were so many chapters that just described the whiteness of the whale.

I sure Melville had naysayers that claimed "No, the whale is punk rock and has a spiky hairdoo with highlights, a hoodie and a wallet chain." Then he reckoned that it would take 5 or so chapters to explain the whiteness of the whale.

But I appreciate it. It's like I go on and on and on about the brilliance of Zappa, and hear about "you can't do that on stage anymore"; "broadway the hardway"; a dubious review (that was the precise negation of mine!) of waka/jawaka from someone who threw out all but 3 Zappa CD's (what's the probability of retaining that one?); "valley girls", I heard Big Swifty on this other live album (which has completely different articulations of the solos and none of the synthesizer madness).

"The greatness of the Zappa"

"Realism" is what I understand to be the genre of writers like Melville and Stephen Crane. They go into excruciating details when describing things. I could be wrong, but this is what I learned in high school when we read Moby Dick...

http://westlake.k12.oh.us/whs/english/A ... MB_AR2.htm

I'm correct. Melville was part of "American Realism".

I'm also pretty darn sure there are 5 chapters that go in depth on the whiteness of the whale, but I refuse to read that smouldering log of dog shit called a novel, that I would still vote "not crap" because it is important and influential...

You need to accept that somebody can listen to Zappa, recognize that it's complex, recognize that it's original, recognize that it's unique and influential and artistic and respected by avant garde groups and all that stuff, and still dislike it

Is it "crap" though? Is it not worth anyone listening to. Keep in mind, people may read this wondering whether it's worth listening to Zappa or not. You yourself admit that it's complex, original, unique, respected, etc.

You have a very strange threshold for what is crap. I mean, I don't like Bach, but it's not crap.

Part of my intent is to clear up the misunderstanding about Zappa. I'm still hearing about these godawful albums. I steered clear of these somehow, but it's not too hard. Zappa from 1966-1975 is very solid. Between 76-80 there's good stuff. Between 80-1993, the avant-garde composition albums are good.

He did a whole lot of shitty material, and it bugs the fuck out of me that this is how he's remembered, because he did a whole of great music. It seems like popular culture preferred his crap and musicology perferred his cream. In a generation or two, the pop-culture representation of Zappa will die, and his great compositions will live. A new society will be built on poodles, zircon encrusted tweezers, towers of power, huskie doo doo, I mean wee-wee, magical pancakes that cure blindness...