whiskerando wrote:
OK. So for the next 50 years everyone uses the forms passed down from US Maple. These forms become cliched, worn-out forms. Do you like the US Maple songs less?.

First of all, that would never happen, because their sound is unique. No one could ever hope to rip-off U.S. Maple; this is a band that has generated their own, personal musical language. This is part of what I love about them.

But, if it were to happen, I wouldn't stop enjoying U.S. Maple. I'd reject the copycats, though.

He mostly plays strange jazz chords

again, what's "strange" about the chords? would Grant Green be suprised by them? I like hearing something unique as much as anyone but the time signatures, structure, and chord oddities are rarely what i'm thinking about when I'm trying to make sense of something new.

Duane Denison isn't a great guitarist because he played in a noisy rock band but often used techniques from jazz to rockabilly in his playing. He is a great guitarist because he can make all of these forms sound like him. He would be interesting to listen to if he was playing the phone book, so to speak.

whiskerando wrote:

He mostly plays strange jazz chords

again, what's "strange" about the chords? would Grant Green be suprised by them? I like hearing something unique as much as anyone but the time signatures, structure, and chord oddities are rarely what i'm thinking about when I'm trying to make sense of something new.

They are strange in the sense that you never hear a rock guitarist play them. Honestly, I can't think of a rock guitarist who sounds even remotely similar to Duane Denison. Hence, his sound is unexpected, fresh and surprising.

Maybe you don't think of those things, and that's okay. Everyone listens to music in his or her own unique way. This is just how I listen to it.

NerblyBear wrote:

whiskerando wrote:
it is impossible for sound, particularly recorded sound to be formless. if it begins and it ends it has form.

You're broadening the definition of "form" to such an extent that it really has no meaning anymore.

why should i like a song because it uses a form fewer people have used?

Because cliched, worn-out forms are a bore for everyone. New forms generate the excitement of the unexpected. As Ezra Pound said, "Make it new!"

Cliched, worn-out forms are only as cliched and worn-out as the artist animating them. To think that there is nothing "new" to be done with power chords or verse/chorus/verse or blues scales is a failure of your imagination, not the forms you malign. I don't find experimentation or innovation admirable in their own right; if it produces good art, cool, but it's not better just because it's weird or different or "new." Rap rock is a relayively new musical hybrid, one that was clearly a bad idea; the Sex Pistols, on the other hand, were pretty much just souped up Chuck Berry riffs with pissed off voice over, and it's absolutely revelatory.

You are aware, by the way, that Pound was all about reinvigorating archaic forms, right? That he appropriated ancient Chinese poems and unearthed all kinds of strange metrical forms from the Provencal? Fuck, there are probably power chords somewhere in The Cantos--he put just about everything else in there. Besides, Pound liked order, if you know what I mean; there's nothing more orderly than fascism. I can't imagine that he'd be on the side of experimentation-for-its-own-sake over the relative merits of The Tradition. He was a classicist, after all. As am I.

Cliched, worn-out forms are only as cliched and worn-out as the artist animating them. To think that there is nothing "new" to be done with power chords or verse/chorus/verse or blues scales is a failure of your imagination, not the forms you malign.

thank you. I can stop now.

Brett Eugene Ralph wrote:Cliched, worn-out forms are only as cliched and worn-out as the artist animating them. To think that there is nothing "new" to be done with power chords or verse/chorus/verse or blues scales is a failure of your imagination, not the forms you malign. I don't find experimentation or innovation admirable in their own right; if it produces good art, cool, but it's not better just because it's weird or different or "new." Rap rock is a relayively new musical hybrid, one that was clearly a bad idea; the Sex Pistols, on the other hand, were pretty much just souped up Chuck Berry riffs with pissed off voice over, and it's absolutely revelatory.

Experimentation or innovation are not notions that have any validity apart from the context in which they're displayed. An artist or musician can make bad music while still clearly attempting to push the envelope. Examples that come to mind are: Frank Zappa and the Beatles.

You still have to have talent. But, on the other hand, even talented artists or musicians have no business rehashing old, tired ideas. This will never produce interesting work.

NerblyBear wrote: But where else?

Monkey Trick, Seasick, etc.

Duane's playing does not rely on such cliches, though, even if he uses them now and again.

I don't recall discussing whether or not a band "relies" on power chords. I just remember you dismissing them (power chords) as the "bane of my existence as a fan of rock 'n' roll."

He mostly plays strange jazz chords, either straight or via arpeggios.

Is this your definition of an inventive guitarist?

nihil wrote:

He mostly plays strange jazz chords, either straight or via arpeggios.

Is this your definition of an inventive guitarist?

Who said I was limiting "inventive guitar playing" to "playing strange jazz chords"? Why are you guys h8'ing on me when you know I'm right?

NerblyBear wrote:Who said I was limiting "inventive guitar playing" to "playing strange jazz chords"? Why are you guys h8'ing on me when you know I'm right?

You sure seem to enjoy arguing about how correct you are regarding music. Do you play guitar or something? I'd like to hear your brilliant art.

zom-zom wrote:You sure seem to enjoy arguing about how correct you are regarding music. Do you play guitar or something? I'd like to hear your brilliant art.

I'm just throwing around ideas here. It's called 'argumentation', and often it leads to interesting insights that come from several different, possibly even contradictory, viewpoints.

The music is there to be talked about as well as listened to, no? Maybe we should all just be quiet about it and stop posting on this message board.