galanter wrote:Your last 2 examples have nothing to do with fictional threats being used to control the public. That was what I was addressing.

There are two threads here. One has you defending Bush as the guy who, despite all his faults, says what he means and believes what he says. These and other examples indicate otherwise.

The bit about atomic weapons was never "I have no doubt they have atomic weapons". It was more like "I have no doubt Saddam will continue to pursue atomic weapons"

I'm referring to one quote in particular. "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." Made during a national address, March 17, 2003. Again, this is only to show that he says a lot of things he doesn't believe.

The second thread relates to your original aside. I understand Bush was very careful to parse and qualify his statements about nuclear weapons. He did this because he knew the nuclear threat was unlikely, and certainly not imminent. Regardless, he mentioned nuclear weapons (e.g. "At one time we know for certain he was close to having a nuclear weapon. Imagine Saddam Hussein with a nuclear weapon") to instill fear and solidify support for the war.

Finally I never said "commenters in political threads were assuming all threats are invented exclusively for purposes of propaganda." I said it was a sentiment I read here about specific threats with some regularity.

Right. You didn't make a blanket statement. But the implication was that the board is too tolerant of conspiracy theorists, and too dismissive of actual threats. I maintain that most commenters here are skeptical of how threats are presented, not whether they exist.

Bush's perception of Saddam's threat as being genuine into and of itself obviously takes a backseat to the goal of 'reigning him in.' This makes perfect sense if you compare the potential threat posed by Saddam to other regimes we are apparently ambivelent about. C'mon.

I've been busy as a bee last couple of days so haven't had much chance to look on here and don't have time to respond properly but I should state to Mr G that despite all I've said I don't think I've stated anywhere that I actually believe Blair did believe at least most of what he said in the build up to war but I am much more suspicious of Bush and his admin.
The primary reason for that is that (aside from looking at what has been put out into the media regarding the subject) Blair has gotten nothing that I can see out of his involvement. Bush's pals on the other hand have got a lot (and I don't agree that they could have got more without government involvement. If that were so why donate such vast sums to those in office? Halliburton - better off without war?)
However, though I seriously doubt it, I do accept that Bush might believe what he says.

This however is almost equally - if not more scary than if he is cynically engineering/manipulating events for the benefits of his buddies. Anyone who means it when they say things like 'God told me to do it' regarding events where people die should be put in a special home. They should not be anywhere near nuclear buttons.

Earwicker wrote:
This however is almost equally - if not more scary than if he is cynically engineering/manipulating events for the benefits of his buddies. Anyone who means it when they say things like 'God told me to do it' regarding events where people die should be put in a special home. They should not be anywhere near nuclear buttons.

Thank you. You now get my vote for dictator...

Amazing puff piece on Tony Snowjob in today's New York Times.

new york times wrote:Bush’s Press Secretary Is Raising Money, and Some Eyebrows

Tony Snow, who is scheduled to make 16 fund-raising appearances before Election Day, acknowledges he has entered “terra incognita.”

ST. CHARLES, Ill., Oct. 15 — Tony Snow draped his lanky frame across a wooden lectern, leaned forward and gazed out at 850 adoring Republicans who had paid $175 apiece to hear him speak. There was a conspiratorial gleam in his eye, as if he was about to reveal some deep inner secret from his new life as the White House press secretary.

“Yesterday,” Mr. Snow declared, “I was in the Oval Office with the president ——”

He cut himself off, took a perfectly calibrated three-second pause and switched into an aw-shucks voice for dramatic effect: “I just looove saying that! Yeaaah, I was in the Oval Office. Just meeee and the president. Nooooobody else.” The crowd lapped it up.

---snip---

For 28 minutes, Mr. Snow paced the stage, hands gesticulating, eyebrows arching, voice rising and falling, as he held forth without notes on the greatness of his job, his president and the American people.

Here was Mr. Snow on working in the White House: “The most exciting, intellectually aerobic job I’m ever going to have.” On the nature of the American soul after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11: “There is an ember of greatness burning in every heart.” On the intellectual acumen of his boss: “He reminds me of one of those guys at the gym who plays about 40 chessboards at once.”

Against other players, or just moving the pieces around like a coked-out monkey?

"Cocaigne Monkey". My new band name.

I like Chomsky. Here's a link to a recent posting on Znet:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=20&ItemID=11182

Bump

Cranius wrote:
Time will tell, but I suspect it will be Bush II.

Well, here we are and it's only gotten worse.

maiolo wrote:In my mind, a slow shift occured starting in 1980. There was no longer any pride in being Middle Class. That made a spoiled, rich, prick, C student from Texas (actually New England) a suitable choice to run the free world.

This shift actually occurred in the mid-1970s, only to be realized under Reagan.

Bush II makes any reasonably competent president look like a fucking genius in comparison. This is scary to me.

The Reagan Administration set the stage for all Bush II's bullshit in ways both literal and figurative...but Reagan's Administration was never so wildly Machiavellian as the Karl Rove Administration (yeah, yeah...Reagan = Iran Contra, Nicaragua, etc...blow me).

How Karl Rove Played Politics During Katrina While People Drowned

The above article is 1) horrifying and 2) details exactly where Rove politics began to fail the Bush II Administration.

So...now we have a new shift brought on by Republican idiocy/callousness and a perfect storm. The new long-term political shift that began in 2003/4 is manifesting itself in 2008 in the guise of Obama. The questions are...1) how can his administration possibly dig itself out from under the rubble that Bush II has left behind?! 2) What will Obama style politics/government actually come to represent?...none of us really have any clue...he could get "Cartered" by the fucked up shit the Bushes/Reagan left behind...and then we're all fucked for good. If Obama sees some measure of success during his presidency, then the right-wingers can prepare themselves for a much deserved period in the political wilderness.

Of course the Bush II Administration was worse, but Reagan/Bush I set the stage.

I would not want to be the president to inherit the mess that is going to be left by the Bush administration. They have broken everything that they've touched.