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Re: Airing of grievances (catch-all)

Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:39 pm
by Dovira
So sick of these radicals who are always on about "the people". We gotta go to the people, to the workers, whatever, we gotta talk to the people, go out among the people, find out what they want.

It's always they. Always them, always those people over there. Never you, never I. Through the fantasy of a "people" with whose voice you claim to speak, you deny how this allows you to erect your self-interest against mine, and against others.

Re: Airing of grievances (catch-all)

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:12 am
by biscuitdough
kokorodoko wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:39 pm So sick of these radicals who are always on about "the people". We gotta go to the people, to the workers, whatever, we gotta talk to the people, go out among the people, find out what they want.

It's always they. Always them, always those people over there. Never you, never I. Through the fantasy of a "people" with whose voice you claim to speak, you deny how this allows you to erect your self-interest against mine, and against others.
Well. You should care about the proletariat. You should care about building a proletariat. Proletarians have class solidarity.

Here in the USA, the nascent proletariat was destroyed in the 40s as the unions sold out. Then, the development of suburbs, highways and unfair mortgage lending practices created a white flight that removed a large proportion of white people from urban areas where they'd share their communities with people of color. They transformed from a proletariat into a peasantry that has solidarity based on tradition and religion, that is to say, with their oppressors.

Re: Airing of grievances (catch-all)

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:43 am
by Geiginni
kokorodoko wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:39 pm So sick of these radicals who are always on about "the people". We gotta go to the people, to the workers, whatever, we gotta talk to the people, go out among the people, find out what they want.

It's always they. Always them, always those people over there. Never you, never I. Through the fantasy of a "people" with whose voice you claim to speak, you deny how this allows you to erect your self-interest against mine, and against others.
Spot. fucking. on.
biscuitdough wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:12 am Well. You should care about the proletariat. You should care about building a proletariat. Proletarians have class solidarity.

Here in the USA, the nascent proletariat was destroyed in the 40s as the unions sold out. Then, the development of suburbs, highways and unfair mortgage lending practices created a white flight that removed a large proportion of white people from urban areas where they'd share their communities with people of color. They transformed from a proletariat into a peasantry that has solidarity based on tradition and religion, that is to say, with their oppressors.
I call bullshit. There seems to be this ideology that humans are perfect white lights of love and goodwill until they are corrupted by the Big Bad Systems. Futile thinking.

Humans are primate hominid apes who have evolved to be as opportunistic as possible, and as self-interested as possible and only socially cooperative where it benefits themselves or their family/tribal unit. Trying to develop -isms that ignore the reality that you're dealing with a bunch of opportunistic apes is just a path to the same old dead-ends that all previous ideological idealism have led to. Identifying and controlling/limiting the influence of those who are clinically sociopathic or psychopathic would probably go further toward enabling utopian living than musty old ideologies from the 19th century and earlier.

Not to say that governments shouldn't be organized to prevent suffering and balance resources where they benefit the most possible. Any effective government system needs to recognize the selfish opportunism that exists at both the top and the bottom. The majickal-socialist-paradise crowd for the past century has tended to only focus on the assholes at the top rather than the assholes that exist everywhere - including the middle and bottom, who make social cohesion and quality of life more difficult for everyone else. But the proles would sell you and I out at any moment for dozens of different reasons and I see no reason to glorify those that would behave just as opportunistically given the chance and those who form the Big Bad System.

Any bandwagon that mindless masses hop on is going to have charismatic sociopaths at the top who bring equal amounts of misery to some out groups from the previous group of sociopaths. There's no way around this and history should've made this pretty clear by now. Maybe building a detached benevolent AI god is one way around this - who knows, but you don't have the answer any more than anyone else does.

Always beware of the charismatic sociopaths though. They're easy to identify. They're the ones you've fallen under the spell of the smell of their bullshit.

Re: Airing of grievances (catch-all)

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:51 am
by biscuitdough
Geiginni wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:43 am
biscuitdough wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:12 am Well. You should care about the proletariat. You should care about building a proletariat. Proletarians have class solidarity.

Here in the USA, the nascent proletariat was destroyed in the 40s as the unions sold out. Then, the development of suburbs, highways and unfair mortgage lending practices created a white flight that removed a large proportion of white people from urban areas where they'd share their communities with people of color. They transformed from a proletariat into a peasantry that has solidarity based on tradition and religion, that is to say, with their oppressors.
I call bullshit. There seems to be this ideology that humans are perfect white lights of love and goodwill until they are corrupted by the Big Bad Systems. Futile thinking.
Not what I said.
Humans are primate hominid apes who have evolved to be as opportunistic as possible, and as self-interested as possible and only socially cooperative where it benefits themselves or their family/tribal unit. Trying to develop -isms that ignore the reality that you're dealing with a bunch of opportunistic apes is just a path to the same old dead-ends that all previous ideological idealism have led to. Identifying and controlling/limiting the influence of those who are clinically sociopathic or psychopathic would probably go further toward enabling utopian living than musty old ideologies from the 19th century and earlier.
I think what you mean to say is, human beings have both social and antisocial tendencies. Nobody is hard wired to benefit their "tribal unit". What outdated ideology did I reference? I think there's a lot more value in Bookchin or the post colonial leftists, I don't think there's much benefit in Marx these days, I don't consider anarchists leftist at all...
Not to say that governments shouldn't be organized to prevent suffering and balance resources where they benefit the most possible. Any effective government system needs to recognize the selfish opportunism that exists at both the top and the bottom. The majickal-socialist-paradise crowd for the past century has tended to only focus on the assholes at the top rather than the assholes that exist everywhere - including the middle and bottom, who make social cohesion and quality of life more difficult for everyone else. But the proles would sell you and I out at any moment for dozens of different reasons and I see no reason to glorify those that would behave just as opportunistically given the chance and those who form the Big Bad System.
Of course. Why focus on the sociopaths who have power? You'll never get anything done that way. What we need is more prisons!
Any bandwagon that mindless masses hop on is going to have charismatic sociopaths at the top who bring equal amounts of misery to some out groups from the previous group of sociopaths. There's no way around this and history should've made this pretty clear by now. Maybe building a detached benevolent AI god is one way around this - who knows, but you don't have the answer any more than anyone else does.
Wow, more claims I didn't make. No functional person would claim to have the entire scheme of a perfect society planned out. I posit the following: the "let's do nothing because some things people have tried have failed" approach you seem to endorse only serves the sociopaths you claim to abhor.
Always beware of the charismatic sociopaths though. They're easy to identify. They're the ones you've fallen under the spell of the smell of their bullshit.
Who are you so angry at? What the fuck did I do?

Re: Airing of grievances (catch-all)

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:16 pm
by Geiginni
biscuitdough wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:51 am
Who are you so angry at? What the fuck did I do?
Sorry. I might have been using you as a proxy for certain "socialist" friends I find naive. I'm also irritated at the plethora of fucktwat bad actors acting in bad faith in a city that seems to be giving a free pass to fucktwats to act in bad faith - which tends to create a sense of resentment of assholes in all strata of society, be they dipshit young anarchists and radicals, methheads or billionaires.

No offence meant. This is the airing of grievances thread, after all!

Re: Airing of grievances (catch-all)

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:22 pm
by biscuitdough
Geiginni wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:16 pm
biscuitdough wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:51 am
Who are you so angry at? What the fuck did I do?
Sorry. I might have been using you as a proxy for certain "socialist" friends I find naive. I'm also irritated at the plethora of fucktwat bad actors acting in bad faith in a city that seems to be giving a free pass to fucktwats to act in bad faith - which tends to create a sense of resentment of assholes in all strata of society, be they dipshit young anarchists and radicals, methheads or billionaires.

No offence meant. This is the airing of grievances thread, after all!
Ha, indeed. I'm frustrated with the stereotypical DSA/chapo assholes too. Not to mention anarchists.

Re: Airing of grievances (catch-all)

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:40 pm
by Dovira
biscuitdough wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:12 amWell. You should care about the proletariat. You should care about building a proletariat. Proletarians have class solidarity.
I kind of have to care about everything that forms part of my world in one way or another. I'm not saying I don't care.

I don't have much of a conception of what proletariat means in this present context, or if it can even be a meaningful term. There are so many possible missteps to be made and blind alleys to wander into, and the discourse is full of them. The idea of proletariat (and even more "working class") has a history and it undergoes alterations throughout that history, so until I have studied this more I wouldn't know what to do with it right now.

Here I will just give one simple example of some of the difficulties:
At the time of Marx, the proletariat or working class denotes a section of people completely outside the purview of the public - they have no voting rights, no property, they are barely citizens in the real sense. They are simply the underside, the "unconscious", on which "real society" is built.
Also notice that Marx is always speaking in some sense in ideal terms, in absolutes - concretely there is of course nobody who is really a proletarian (or a bourgeois), or a mass of identical people like this, and there are all kinds of nuances and gradations within either designation.
Through the process, in the western world, of rising labour power and the development of democracy, peaking in the post-war economic miracle period, this class enters the public and the symbolic order - the individual of this class gains a role, they become somebody, they gain a stake in their society.
The worker was able to negotiate a social contract which, in exchange for their labour, gave them access to a house, a wife, and a life of comfort.

A significant part of the protests of this "working class" right now (as it is expressed publicly) is based on a percieved loss of this symbolic role, in favour of other social groups who are interpreted as antagonistic, social groups who themselves have been fighting for this symbolic recognition, and, crucially, did not have this even at the time of the high point of this "working class".
It is here that all these fights over class vs. identity etc. are to be located.

This is borne out further by the fact that the practical programs put forth as pure class politics as distinct from identity politics, are always framed in nostalgic terms. They look back on the postwar reconstruction period as the thing to be preserved or replicated. The obvious problem with this is that an actual replication of the ideal living conditions of the "working class" of this period, can only mean a replication of the social conditions of this period in their entirety. It is therefore if not actively hostile to, at least dismissive of, contemporary feminism, LGBT etc., since the prominence of these are rooted in conditions which have replaced those in which this "working class" had their prominence - for example, the proliferation of media channels making possible for a wider array of voices to make themselves heard, and thus be identified with by other people.

The scare quotes around "working class" is to stress that this identification belongs, as expressed and typically imagined, to one particular social group, one which even domestically does not encompass the entirety of the working class proper (what Marx called the "class in-itself" - the class which is concretely the class (people labouring), but does not recognize itself as such, i.e. has a concrete view of their mutual commonality and how their situation, individually and collectively, relates to the wider social environment.)

Then I haven't even touched upon the controversy of third world vs. first world, which I am not equipped to speak on anyway. For my part the idea of labour in itself, of economy, of capital, of markets, require reformulations which I don't possess at present, and which I find in the forms I encounter them to be mostly used in crude and unsatisfactory ways.

Not to mention the can of worms that is 20th century communism. The glorification of work which sits uncomfortably close to the gulag as its logical end point. The inherently ableist notion of grounding your claims to validity in being someone who works. And so on and so on. So many things.

Bruh. I didn't even get to the subject of my original post, which is what I meant to comment on. I'll save that for later.

Re: Airing of grievances (catch-all)

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:54 pm
by kicker_of_elves
Geiginni wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:16 pm
biscuitdough wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:51 am
Who are you so angry at? What the fuck did I do?
Sorry. I might have been using you as a proxy for certain "socialist" friends I find naive. I'm also irritated at the plethora of fucktwat bad actors acting in bad faith in a city that seems to be giving a free pass to fucktwats to act in bad faith - which tends to create a sense of resentment of assholes in all strata of society, be they dipshit young anarchists and radicals, methheads or billionaires.

No offence meant. This is the airing of grievances thread, after all!
Would you say I had a...plethora?

Re: Airing of grievances (catch-all)

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:29 pm
by jfv
kicker_of_elves wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:54 pm Would you say I had a...plethora?
Ahh, the singing bush.

Re: Airing of grievances (catch-all)

Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:39 pm
by kicker_of_elves
jfv wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 2:29 pm
kicker_of_elves wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:54 pm Would you say I had a...plethora?
Ahh, the singing bush.
Mount up!

It means...get on your horses.