Ron Paul?

No way he will get the nomination
Total votes: 67 (64%)
He has a chance of the nomination, but he could never beat the Democrats
Total votes: 4 (4%)
Paul in '08!
Total votes: 33 (32%)
Total votes: 104

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

1171
Rick Reuben wrote:Refusing the money will not cut the budget. It will just send the money elsewhere.


The propaganda machine is in full effect...any money not earmarked goes to the executive branch. All these morons are advocating a system of government where federal spending is terrific but earmarks are bad because the television and newspapers told them so. The net result....more power to Bush. Stupid!

http://www.earmarks.omb.gov/

"On January 3, 2007 President Bush called on Congress to cut the number and cost of earmarks by at least half (hey look, sounds like y'all)...(earmarking) curtails the ability of the Executive Branch to properly manage funds (halliburton, enron, cronyism...come on the TV says more than just earmarks)."

As a congressman, forwarding a request from one of your constituents is entirely consistent with representative democracy.

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

1172
Preston's response to Chomsky's critique of Paul springs from a fundamental misunderstanding of where Chomsky is coming from.

He criticizes Chomsky for both appealing to anarchist principles and defending the power of the state in certain respects. However, this seeming contradiction evaporates when we realize that Chomsky's ultimate political philosophy -- anarchosyndicalism -- is not borne from consideration of solutions to the pressing problems of today's American state capitalism. Rather, he has on many occasions pointed out that the sort of initiatives foreseen by the anarchist worldview can only come about once society has already been radically re-organized on a grassroots level. So, what Preston misses is that Chomsky's defense of federal taxation and government services does not spring from an ultimate defense of the existence of our state but is, rather, a piecemeal attempt to deal with problems which have organically arisen fro the very existence of the state in the first place. Chomsky has pointed out many times that any serious attempt to mount a revolution against corporate power and the current political climate would have devastating consequences because the entire global system is tied into that framework. Hence, his support for the goals of the Seattle protestors comes with the qualification that globalization is not something that can be done away with at this point, and that rearguard defensive measures are what are now appropriate. The same goes for his defense of federal taxation. Because business would overwhelmingly dominate a society which doesn't feature those state restrictions, an anarchist's most logical response would be to defend those restrictions as a response to the bind in which the Catch-22 situation has placed him.

A doctor can't just tell the guy he's performing a triple-bypass on that he shouldn't have eaten that daily bag of Doritos in the first place.

So Chomsky's critique of Paul has to do with the fact that Paul isn't responding sanely to present exigencies. It also has to do with the two men's distinctive views on what constitutes an acceptable form of libertarianism. For Chomsky, libertarianism is not the devaluation of power to business, but is rather a complete recasting of society in a mold which wouldn't feature the need for hierarchical businesses in the first place. Paul's libertarianism doesn't go nearly so far. Rather, what he advocates is that we keep all of the prominent features of capitalism -- religious indoctrination, job competition, military might, and xenophobic nationalism -- and yet get rid of the state, which is portrayed by these types as a wholly coercive, wholly immoral incubus sucking out our will to survive.

Chomsky's critique of American foreign power also has little to do with Paul's because the former is an attempt to introduce ethical considerations into power politics, while the latter is a reactionary response to too much federal spending and to too many American deaths.

On every issue, any possible linkage of the two is wholly in the abstract, and their differences are overwhelming and inescapable. Both positions are similar, however, in that they are both responses to serious problems with the current situation faced by the American people.
Last edited by NerblyBear_Archive on Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Gay People Rock

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

1174
Rick Reuben wrote:
That's how ridiculous the fake liberals sound. Check out this shit from Nerbly:
NerblyBear wrote:Indeed, we're stuck in a Catch-22: corporate power is so entrenched in our political and economic systems that what might have been the fair thing to do is no longer possible, because such an idealistic gambit can have radical, unforeseen negative consequences.

Nerbly recommends not stripping power from the rich, because they'll retaliate. He's not sure exactly how ( he calls the consequences 'unforseen' :roll: ), but he thinks bad things will happen. So, instead of doing the right thing, which might have unpredictable results, Nerbly advocates continuing business-as-usual, which will continue to have the known bad results that we can predict and document.

Later, Nerbly will tell women that if they are being raped, they should not fight back, because it might provoke the rapist to murder you.

:roll:


Complete misinterpretation. I've specifically pointed out how businesses will react: by ditching American workers and moving overseas.

I'm not advocating "business-as-usual". I'm simply denying the outlandish responses by people such as Paul and yourself.
Gay People Rock

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

1176
NerblyBear wrote:
Skronk wrote:Chomsky's not an anarchist. He fundamentally sees no problem with government, but slyly picks and chooses which governments/actions he attacks.


Sorry, you're going to have to use a little bit more effort than that.


No, actually I don't.

If you think he's anarchist, I've got a leaky boat to sell you.
Marsupialized wrote:I want a piano made out of jello.
It's the only way I'll be able to achieve the sound I hear in my head.

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

1177
Skronk wrote:
NerblyBear wrote:
Skronk wrote:Chomsky's not an anarchist. He fundamentally sees no problem with government, but slyly picks and chooses which governments/actions he attacks.


Sorry, you're going to have to use a little bit more effort than that.


No, actually I don't.


I should have appended to my sentence, "if you want to be taken seriously." Go to some effort to work out your argument or find evidence which supports your hypothesis. As it stands, you're just another carper from the peanut gallery with baseless opinions.
Gay People Rock

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

1178
Rick Reuben wrote:
NerblyBear wrote:Preston's response to Chomsky's critique of Paul fundamentally misunderstands where Chomsky is coming from.

No, the problem is that Chomsky is frequently of two minds.
preston wrote:But, Dr. Chomksy, you've written over and over again that the American corporate system rests on state interventionism (state-capitalism) rather than the separation of economy and state favored by libertarians like Ron Paul. As many have observed, the unbalanced nature of the employer-employee relationship rests on state privilege for business elites, not on any sort of free enterprise worthy of the label. Why maintain this contradictory and seemingly irrational attachment to statism in the name of economic justice?


The "unbalanced nature of the employer-employee relationship" does not rest "on state privilege for business elites". Before corporate welfare -- indeed, before any of the large government operations we know today -- businesses operated under a free-for-all system where there was unlimited competition, no minimum wage, poor working conditions, and complete liability on their part in the event of a market downturn. The reasons why this system could not last came out in spades during the Great Depression, and the ensuing state oversight of the business world was a direct response to that unworkable system.

Needless to say, workers were treated much worse and paid much less before the government stepped in and put an end to unfettered capitalism.

Like I said, the fact that Chomsky both supports this relationship and criticizes it (for example, for funding the war machine) does not mean that he's necessarily contradicting himself. It means that he's taking a nuanced and holistic view of all of the circumstances, which people such as Paul are incapable of doing.
Gay People Rock

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

1179
Rick Reuben wrote:Did you or did you not state that taking power from corporations is no longer possible?


You're incapable of not using meaningless, overly-general language. What you caricature as "taking power from corporations" was actually the specific response you mentioned: doing away with payroll taxes completely and shifting all of the ensuing burden onto businesses and capital gains.

I'm actually in favor of "taking power away from corporations," (for instance, in taxing them more, but not so much that they'll flee the country) but, in your myopic interpretation, if I'm not in favor of eradicating all taxes apart from those placed on the top 1 percent, I must not be in favor of it.

Corporations should be taxed more, and more regulation should be placed on them. Just not so much that they're driven away.
Gay People Rock

Presidential Contender: Ron Paul

1180
Rick Reuben wrote:What a bozo:
NerblyBear wrote: Paul's libertarianism doesn't go nearly so far. Rather, what he advocates is that we keep all of the prominent features of capitalism -- religious indoctrination, job competition, military might, and xenophobic nationalism

What are you babbling about in that mess? 'military might'? Name another candidate other than Paul who wants to shrink the defense budget, end foreign bases, and stop committing troops on foreign soil. 'religious indoctination' is a prominent feature of capitalism?? WTF, you dope? Capitalism is always trying to subjugate religion to the preferred religion of capitalism, which is capitalism and nationalism. That's why capitalist countries are always warring with theocratic societies around the globe, like Muslim nations- they are not devoted to the cult of the market above all.

And what are you babbling about with the phrase 'job competition', while I'm at it?


I was contrasting those positions with the sort of society envisioned by anarchists such as Chomsky. Hence, though Paul may be less militaristic than other candidates, that's irrelevant in terms of this contrast I was drawing. Anarchists work from the principle that there should not be job competition, religious indoctrination, or any military power at all. The libertarianism proposed by Chomsky is, in this way, the polar opposite of Paul's libertarianism.

I am not an anarchist. Thought I'd just point that out.

And religion may not be exclusive to capitalism, but capitalism does foster it in a number of ways. Just read Marx on the issue, where he calls them two sides of the same coin.
Gay People Rock

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