The Code is Almighty wrote:

Colonel Panic wrote:Making a joke is one thing.........But running down an entire race of people in a serious manner, right to the face of a member of that ethnic group is something completely different.

If I read this right; this isn't what she did at all. She was pissed at some people and describing it here. She used a descriptor. A very effective descriptor. Since when is 'Mexican' a derogatory term? If she called me a left-handed, wavy-haired piece of shit, would I have cause to be pissed? I'm left-handed, I have wavy hair. She thinks I'm a piece of shit. What's the problem?

When I tell people about tamale guy and say "Oh, he's this awesome Mexican guy that seems to know about every single bar on the Northside and stops there twice nightly to sell delicious tamales on the cheap," am I being racist?

She didn't do anything wrong.

It was wrong enough in that dude's head to threaten to beat her ass, think about that

It's OK. I think everyone here understands that you're not a racist. I too have said regrettable things in anger. It's part of being human.

This thread seems to have mutated into a relative discussion of race and racism and the many shades of well-meaning hypocrisy and double-standards that surround the issue.

Please don't feel as if you're dangling from a hook because we keep talking about this stuff. It's a compelling issue and many of us feel it's worth discussing, especially in light of the current historical precedent of a black man being a viable candidate for US President.

These are issues that have been simmering beneath the surface of American politics ever since the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s, and it's about time we started addressing them explicitly.

I'd like to see Angus Jung try to beat my ass.

Bring it, asshole. If you have a beef with me about hating the Oakland scene or whatnot, try to beat my ass. I will rip your head off. I have bloodied lesser men than you and I'm not afraid of your librarian ass.

But really, why don't you just tell me why you hate me rather than making malicious claims on internet messageboards? That would be nice.

Colonel Panic wrote:especially in light of the current historical precedent of a black man being a viable candidate for US President

why did you have to mention he is 'black'? what's that supposed to mean?
Panic, I would have never guessed you being a racist but here we are, in black and white.

You know what?

I'm Polish as fuck and partially Ukranian too. If someone in half-conscious anger said "you Galician piece of shit" I wouldn't take it as a racist insult. I'd assume they were referring to my last name and I'd just accept the insult because I was probably doing something to anger them. That's how I am. I don't look for reasons to think that people are out to get me.

The Code is Almighty wrote:If I read this right; this isn't what she did at all. She was pissed at some people and describing it here. She used a descriptor. A very effective descriptor. Since when is 'Mexican' a derogatory term? If she called me a left-handed, wavy-haired piece of shit, would I have cause to be pissed? I'm left-handed, I have wavy hair. She thinks I'm a piece of shit. What's the problem?

It's because racism is a very real problem in this country. I have never heard of people being lynched, given seriously unfair treatment or being publicly degraded because of being left-handed. At least not since the second grade or so.

Stop pretending to be so thick about this. You know exactly what the issue is. If you really don't understand the difference between calling somebody a "Mexican piece of shit" and a "wavy-haired piece of shit" then you really ought to rethink your suitability for a job in a position of management.

I'm not discussing this because I want to make Amanda feel bad for what she said. I understand her circumstance, and that doesn't bother me at all. I want to separate the discussion of this issue from her specific story right now, so as not to hurt any more feelings and to remove the bias that I'm just harping on a member of our community here. The reason I'm discussing this is that there seems to be a level of denial of the social implications regarding perceptions of race in our society. I feel that this is an important issue, don't you?

Wow, I can't imagine how many times I've been out with Panic driving and he's just seethed in the passenger seat at my langauge directed at other drivers.

Mandroid2.0 wrote:This is all pretty terrific since I spent my childhood defending Mexicans and Hmongs from the tormenting of the hicks in the Green Bay area.

The only reason I included what I said in the original post is that it was a moment where the TOTALLY WRONG thing came out of my mouth. I didn't mean to equate Mexicans to pieces of shit. I just put A+B together and it was a bad idea, and I immediately knew it and felt bad and would sound bad and that I wished I'd phrased if differently.

That's 100% understandable. I don't think less of you because of that mistake. Shit like that happens when we're tired and angry.

Mandroid2.0 wrote:I'm Polish as fuck and partially Ukranian too. If someone in half-conscious anger said "you Galician piece of shit" I wouldn't take it as a racist insult. I'd assume they were referring to my last name and I'd just accept the insult because I was probably doing something to anger them. That's how I am. I don't look for reasons to think that people are out to get me.

Now that's not the same thing, because there isn't the same degree of social and political bias in American society surrounding people of your particular ethnicity.

I personally believe race itself to be more of a social construct than an integral physical difference among human beings. Sure, ethnicities and differences in national heritage do exist, and some physical differences are manifested between people of different ethnic backgrounds. But that's not the same thing as considering ethnic groups to be different races. Among humans, there are myriad physical and psychological characteristics but the idea of race is a fiction that has its roots in prejudice.

Now in saying that race is a social construct, I am not saying that there aren't cultural differences among people. There are, and because of these cultural differences within our society (as well as most other societies), people tend to segregate themselves from others along these perceived "racial" lines. This causes many important issues in society, including perceptions (real or imagined) of extreme prejudice by others concerning their own race.

If I were to walk down the street and a black dude on the street were to call me a "white piece of shit", I would consider that to be very racist, ignorant and offensive. And rightfully so. He's identifying me by race and calling me shit. The two things put together in the same descriptive phrase implies that he is judging me as shit by my "race". I would be insulted and offended and I might even feel a bit threatened. I might get pissed and want to punch the guy in the face. But I would mostly be offended and dismayed by his ignorance.

Even if I were a bystander on the street and I overheard some white person call a black person a "black piece of shit," I would immediately consider that person to be somewhat racist for the same reason. You ought to be aware that any time you insult a person while invoking their apparent "race" or ethnicity, you are likely going to be judged harshly for it by anyone who overhears. This is pretty universal.

For a person in an ethnic minority who has had negative experiences regarding the issue of race, that person's perceptions of racism will most likely be greatly inflated.

Colonel Panic wrote:If you really don't understand the difference between calling somebody a "Mexican piece of shit" and a "wavy-haired piece of shit" then you really ought to rethink your suitability for a job in a position of management.

Goodness.

I feel that it's ok for someone to have differing opinions depending on a situation. For instance, on a message board with a liberal slant, and among friends, and in the original context that we're speaking of here, I see no problem with what manders said. I didn't take it as a slight on Mexicans. On the other hand, if this situation we're posed to me from a professional standpoint, a managerial one for example, I would say that any sort of derogatory speech about anyone in the workplace is inappropriate, no matter what it entails, race, gender, work performance, etc. If you have a problem with someone, you need to first try and address it with them. If that isn't a possibility, then you need to discuss the matter with your direct supervisor. If this is also a problem, perhaps the issue is with your direct supervisor, you can either go to their supervisor while letting them know you're doing so, or go directly to your HR department. Finally, at no point should one's personal life be brought into and deliberated on in the workplace, unless, and without a doubt, it is directly affecting the organization. There should zero tolerance for anyone who makes a habit of slinging mud at a wall and hoping some will stick. I'm really sorry that you think stimulating conversation among friends is grounds for someone to be declared unfit for a position. I'll cross you off of my list of references.

Colonel Panic wrote:I feel that this is an important issue, don't you?

Certainly. And that's why I posted my opinion that slightly differed from yours. I feel that there certainly exists speak that can fall into the no-fly zone. In my opinion, this isn't it. It's not even close.

Colonel Panic wrote:I have never heard of people being lynched, given seriously unfair treatment or being publicly degraded because of being left-handed. At least not since the second grade or so.

We are the silent minority my friend.

For thousands of years, the Devil has been associated with the left hand in various ways and is normally portrayed as being left-handed in pictures and other images. In the seventeenth century it was thought that the Devil baptised his followers with his left-hand and there are many references in superstitions to the "left-hand side" being associated with evil. As an example, in France it was held that witches greet Satan "avec le bras gauche" or with the left hand.

Joan of Arc (burned at the stake in 1431 for being a heretic and a witch) was not necessarily left-handed, she may have been depicted in this way to make her seem evil.


From here:

Right up until the 20th century, having a left handed wife was sufficient grounds for divorce in Japan.


Until fairly recently, children in many countries around the world who showed signs of left handedness at school were rapped on the knuckles and made to write with their right hands. In Victorian times, children even had their left arms tied behind their backs so they couldn’t use them.

Throughout history, left handers have been treated with suspicion and hostility. For example, in medieval times, if a woman was left handed, she was accused of being a witch. And the penalty for that was death.

The Code is Almighty wrote:[On the other hand, if this situation we're posed to me from a professional standpoint, a managerial one for example, I would say that any sort of derogatory speech about anyone in the workplace is inappropriate, no matter what it entails, race, gender, work performance, etc. If you have a problem with someone, you need to first try and address it with them. If that isn't a possibility, then you need to discuss the matter with your direct supervisor. If this is also a problem, perhaps the issue is with your direct supervisor, you can either go to their supervisor while letting them know you're doing so, or go directly to your HR department. Finally, at no point should one's personal life be brought into and deliberated on in the workplace, unless, and without a doubt, it is directly affecting the organization. There should zero tolerance for anyone who makes a habit of slinging mud at a wall and hoping some will stick.

Derogatory speech with specific regard to race is grounds for termination in most corporate workplaces ans US laws provide for very harsh penalties against any companies that promote or even tolerate such behavior. You do realize that, don't you?

I'm not disparaging your qualifications. I'm trying to get you to admit that you understand why such talk is considered offensive in our society. I don't believe you don't have a handle on this when you're looking for a job in corporate management.

I'm not talking about goddamn medieval times right now, I think it's pretty clear that if we were living in those good ole Medieval days, every single member of this community as well as most citizens of America would be tortured and killed for our political beliefs.