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Linguist - Author - Historian: Noam Chomsky

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:07 am
by matthew_Archive
Andrew L. wrote:
si-maro wrote:I will assert this: I'm no academic linguist badass, but everything I've read from Chomsky and everyone else's analysis of Chomsky suggests that the above quote from Andrew Knight is complete horseshit.


Yeah, that's what I thought. Chomsky is solely interested in syntax, and lexicography is presumably epiphenomenal to Universal Grammar in his view(?)

Yet, Chomsky does suggest some weird stuff.

Here's Knight's response to specific criticisms of his characterization of Chomsky (Chomsky aside, Knight's polemic re the disciplinary stratification of knowledge production is of increasing interest to me). I still think Knight is misrepresenting Chomsky, but the matter seems more vexed than I'd thought.

Al Cohen: I have to say that Chomsky's project has been to change the field of linguistics from a soft to a hard science.

Chris Knight: Yes, as everyone knows, this has always been Chomsky’s stated project. By ‘hard science’, Chomsky means ‘natural science’. By contrast, any kind of social science is deemed ‘soft’. This is my point. It is precisely his acceptance of this institutional/disciplinary divide that compels Chomsky to be so ruthless in defining language as a natural object. The slightest concession on this score would lead to the implication that linguistics could be scientific while also being ‘soft’. Chomsky wants linguistics to be completely ‘hard’. This compels him to redefine language as completely ‘natural’, with the logical corollary (logical in Chomsky’s mind) that it is neither ‘social’ nor ‘cultural’. Once this novel definition has been established, it can be ruled legitimate to exclude all social science
perspectives. This is precisely what Chomsky does.

Al Cohen: Knight is completely wrong to say that Chomsky's project has been to say that 'the meanings of words are not socially negotiated but wired into the brain.' Chomsky never makes claims about the lexical semantics of a language, but rather of its syntax and grammar.

Chris Knight: I am afraid this comment is not well informed. Chomsky makes no such distinction between syntax/grammar on the one hand, semantics on the other. Instead he conflates the two. I agree that this is very strange. But although it is strange, it is nevertheless true.

Rather than argue in a vacuum about whether it is or isn’t true, I think it
best to accept Chomsky’s own word on such matters. Recourse to Chomsky is a valid procedure because our dispute just now is over what Chomsky does or doesn’t say. So here, just for the record, is Chomsky himself:

‘In my view, most of what’s called semantics is syntax. I just call it
syntax; other people call the same thing semantics. Syntactic Structures, in my view, is pure syntax, but the questions dealt with there are what other people call semantics. I was interested in the question, “Why does ‘John is easy to please’ have a different meaning from ‘John is eager to please’?” I wanted to find a theory of language structure that would explain that fact. Most people call that semantics; I call it syntax because I think it has to do with mental representations. Take a point we discussed earlier: the word house, the concept “house,” and the use of the word house in real situations to refer to things. There are two relations there, and I don’t think you can turn them into one as is commonly done. The common idea is that there’s one relation, the relation of reference, and I don’t believe that. I think there’s a relation that holds between the word house and a very rich concept that doesn’t only hold of house but of all sorts of other things. That relation most people would call semantics. I call it syntax because it has to do with mental representations and the structure of mental representations.’1

As for whether Chomsky says that ‘the meanings of words are not socially
negotiated but wired into the brain’, I am again perplexed. Can anyone
familiar with Chomsky’s writings possibly doubt this? Chomsky himself makes his position abundantly clear. The lexical concept ‘house’, he explains, is wired into the brain. Here is Chomsky in his own words:

'There’s a fixed and quite rich structure of understanding associated with the concept “house” and that’s going to be cross-linguistic and it’s going to
arise independently of any evidence because it’s just part of our nature.' 2

Of course, Chomsky is not stupid. He knows perfectly well that there are
different kinds of houses – mud huts, country mansions, men’s houses, public houses etc. etc. – and that for this and other reasons people in different cultural situations will be using the word ‘house’ (in whatever language) in different ways, for different literal and/or metaphorical purposes and so on. But he is not interested in all this. For him, such matters concern linguistic usage, not the nature of language as such. As we have just seen, Chomsky treats semantics as syntax. Lexical concepts can be used in various ways, he says, but in themselves they are fixed features of the human Language Faculty, in this respect no different from syntactic features. His fundamental point is that variations in semantic usage are superficial. Beneath all such variation, he asserts, the lexical concept ‘house’ – a component of the human language faculty – is universal and hard-wired. It is a pre-installed internal feature of the ‘semantic component’ of the distinctively human ‘language organ’.

Al Cohen: No responsible linguist can state that lexical semantics can
represent universal truths about onotological objects.

Chris Knight: I did not say that. I am well aware that for Chomsky, the whole of language including ‘the semantic component’ is ‘internal’ to the Language Faculty rather than ‘external’ in the sense of accurately mirroring the environment.

Having said that, Chomsky’s position is very strange. Why should the lexical concept ‘house’ be part of the human genome? Are we sure that palaeolithic hunter-gatherers had houses? In the recent ethnographic record, most Aboriginal Australians didn’t really have houses. Very often, they slept in the open around a camp-fire. But even assuming our paleolithic ancestors did have houses, it still doesn’t solve the wider problem of where lexical concepts can have come from.

It seems extremely unlikely that the lexical concept ‘carburetor’ could have become installed during the evolutionary emergence of Homo sapiens. So what about this concept? Is it an exception? Do we adjudicate that certain concepts (such as ‘house’) are part of the genome while others (such as ‘carburettor’) are just socially or culturally determined? As a scientific theory, that would look a bit messy and inconsistent.

In a sense to his credit, Chomsky opts for consistency. To this end, he
decides that even in the case of ‘bureaucrat’ and ‘carburettor’, the concepts are hard-wired. Our stone age ancestors already had these concepts, even though as yet they didn’t need to use them.

Yes, I agree, this is strange. I fully appreciate that few supporters of
Chomsky are likely to believe me unless I quote Chomsky himself. So let me quote Chomsky himself.

After defending his idea in a general way, Chomsky elaborates:

‘Furthermore, there is good reason to suppose that the argument is at least in substantial measure correct even for such words as carburettor and bureaucrat, which, in fact, pose the familiar problem of poverty of stimulus if we attend carefully to the enormous gap between what we know and the evidence on the basis of which we know it. The same is often true of technical terms of science and mathematics, and it surely appears to be the in substantial measure correct even for such words as carburettor and
bureaucrat, which, in fact, pose the familiar problem of poverty of stimulus
if we attend carefully to the enormous gap between what we know and the
evidence on the basis of which we know it. The same is often true of
technical terms of science and mathematics, and it surely appears to be the case for the terms of ordinary discourse. However surprising the conclusion may be that nature has provided us with an innate stock of concepts, and that the child’s task is to discover their labels, the empirical facts appear to leave open few other possibilities.’3

‘Thus Aristotle had the concept of an airplane in his brain, and also the
concept of a bicycle – he just never had occasion to use them!’, comments Dan Dennett, adding that he and his colleagues find it hard not to burst out
laughing at this point.4

So there we have it. Chomsky views word meanings – the concepts to which words are attached – as mental representations drawn from an ‘innate stock’ of such representations provided by ‘nature’. The child who acquires a particular language, according to Chomsky, doesn’t have to learn the concept. The task is simply to rummage through its innate stock of concepts and then discover the relevant label.

This is what I said in the first place. I very much thank Al Cohen for giving
me this opportunity to explain. I hopeI have made myself clear.

References.

1. Gary A Olson and Lester Faigley, 1991. Politics and composition: a
conversation with Noam Chomsky. In Journal of Advanced Composition 11.1, pp.
1-36.
2. The same.
3. N. Chomsky (2000) New Horizons in the Study of Language and Mind
(Cambridge: Cambridge University Press), pp. 64-66.
4. D. Dennett (1991) Consciousness Explained (London, Penguin), pp.
192n-193n.


The study of human language can never be a "hard science" because any "science" that involves human volition is de facto hard to make predictions and lawlike generalizations about. Soft science.....ok....but never a science like geology or oncology.

The hybris of modern scientists is that they have FAITH in conquering all that is when in fact they nor has anyone else seen all that is.

Linguistics is interesting insofar as it is useful. Pure theorising about the ultimate origin of language is stupid, much like any theorising about ultimate origins.


ssssssssss

Unless.........................you accept a purely deterministic view of reality.....a view that is continually, empirically disproved by every voluntary human action.

Linguist - Author - Historian: Noam Chomsky

Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:16 am
by Linus Van Pelt_Archive
matthew wrote:The study of human language can never be a "hard science" because any "science" that involves human volition is de facto hard to make predictions and lawlike generalizations about. Soft science.....ok....but never a science like geology or oncology.

The hybris of modern scientists is that they have FAITH in conquering all that is when in fact they nor has anyone else seen all that is.

Linguistics is interesting insofar as it is useful. Pure theorising about the ultimate origin of language is stupid, much like any theorising about ultimate origins.


Ugh.
ssssssssss

Slow leak?
Unless.........................you accept a purely deterministic view of reality.....a view that is continually, empirically disproved by every voluntary human action.

All right... how can anything you observe empirically disprove a purely deterministic view of reality?

Linguist - Author - Historian: Noam Chomsky

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:38 am
by Andrew L_Archive
So, there's a small tribe in Brazil whose language is so exceptional it might prove "the final nail in the coffin of Noam Chomsky's linguistic legacy."

The Pirahã appear to have no words or conceptual framework for understanding numbers and their grammar appears to be non-recursive. According to Chomsky's Universal Grammar, this is impossible.



Two articles:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/sci ... 362380.ece

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/interna ... 91,00.html

Linguist - Author - Historian: Noam Chomsky

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:46 am
by Cranius_Archive


Thanks for those Andrew,

Safe to say, I found the world of the Pirahã curious and utterly terrifying.

Eventually Everett came up with a surprising explanation for the peculiarities of the Pirahã idiom. "The language is created by the culture," says the linguist. He explains the core of Pirahã culture with a simple formula: "Live here and now." The only thing of importance that is worth communicating to others is what is being experienced at that very moment. "All experience is anchored in the present," says Everett, who believes this carpe-diem culture doesn't allow for abstract thought or complicated connections to the past -- limiting the language accordingly.

Living in the now also fits with the fact that the Pirahã don't appear to have a creation myth explaining existence. When asked, they simply reply: "Everything is the same, things always are." The mothers also don't tell their children fairy tales -- actually nobody tells any kind of stories. No one paints and there is no art.

Even the names the villagers give to their children aren't particularly imaginative. Often they are named after other members of the tribe which whom they share similar traits. Whatever isn't important in the present is quickly forgotten by the Pirahã. "Very few can remember the names of all four grandparents," says Everett.


It brings to mind observations of the people of Hirta (the last truly indigenous people of Britain), in the Western Isles of Scotland. They were said to almost never talk and acted seemingly telepathically, because they were so close knit and hyper-aware of each others' wants and needs.

Linguist - Author - Historian: Noam Chomsky

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 4:41 pm
by Earwicker_Archive
A few months ago I was embroiled in an E-mail argument with a friend regarding an interview of Chomsky by Emma Brockes in the Guardian last October.

http://www.fridgemagnet.org.uk/mirror/b ... omsky.html

the article was retracted and withdrawn from the guardian website after complaints of mis-representaion and 'lies' in the interview.

Just wondering if anyone read it (I haven't read all of this thread mind so this may already have been mentioned) and has any thoughts on the subsequent complaints recriminations etc etc that followed.

If you don't know nothing about it just type in a few key words into a search engine and you'll find plenty.

Linguist - Author - Historian: Noam Chomsky

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 5:23 pm
by Gramsci_Archive
Earwicker wrote:Just wondering if anyone read it (I haven't read all of this thread mind so this may already have been mentioned) and has any thoughts on the subsequent complaints recriminations etc etc that followed.

If you don't know nothing about it just type in a few key words into a search engine and you'll find plenty.


Yes, I read it and it was one of the worst pieces of journalism The Guardian has ever printed and they were right to remove it from their site.

Linguist - Author - Historian: Noam Chomsky

Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 5:37 pm
by sunlore_Archive
I just started digging in to Chomsky because of this thread, the political stuff. I like the way he just piles up alot of evidence to support his view. He is thorough.

I'm not so sure for the essentialism. But what the fuck do I know.

Reading this thread made me smarter. Salut.

Linguist - Author - Historian: Noam Chomsky

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 12:06 am
by nihil_Archive
Earwicker wrote:Just wondering if anyone read it (I haven't read all of this thread mind so this may already have been mentioned) and has any thoughts on the subsequent complaints recriminations etc etc that followed.

If you don't know nothing about it just type in a few key words into a search engine and you'll find plenty.



Noam Chomsky wrote:
Chomsky replies re Guardian retracts Chomsky smear

I probably have the article stored (they've taken it off their website, contrary to what I requested). If I can locate it, will send it to you.
My comment? I think I'll leave it to others to say. But bear in mind that while this case was extreme, it's close to a historical universal that dissidents are subject to ugly treatment, which takes various forms: vilification, defamation, slanders, lies in more free societies where the power to coerce is limited: imprisonment or exile in the old Soviet Union; in a US dependency, like El Salvador, having your brains blown out by an elite battalion armed and trained by Washington. Nov. 17 was the anniversary of the brutal execution of six leading Latin American intellectuals, Jesuit priests, in El Salvador in 1989, by the Atlacatl brigade, which had already compiled a vicious record of slaughter of the usual victims, bringing to a symbolic close the hideous decade in Central America that opened with the assassination of an Archbishop who was a "voice for the voiceless" while saying Mass, by similar hands. Since we are the agents, it passed in silence. Imagine if something remotely similar had happened at the same time in, say, Czechoslovakia. That does really merit comment, to put it mildly.
The full story is incomparably worse, and there are many others like it. Those, I think, are the topics that should concern us when we consider the modes of silencing dissent in Western societies.
NC


Reply from NC,
The evidence of editorial planning is overwhelming. Just consider the layout, the highly selective photos designed for defamation (which took plenty of careful work and planning), the lies and deceit in the captions, etc. Furthermore, it's obvious just on internal evidence in the electronic edition, without more than a moment's investigation. Take the letters. They ran a brief letter of mine (eliminating my word "fabrication") stating that I take no responsibility for anything that is attributed to me -- all of which they recognize is false, as they could have discovered in five minutes investigation; and if the target of the defamations were anywhere near the mainstream, those alleged quotes and other charges would certainly have been checked before publication. Alongside my letter is a moving letter from a victim of the Serb atrocities they were trying valiantly to get me to deny (inventing the denial when I refused to go along). The headline, placed by the editors, is "falling out over Srebrenica." By simple logic, that is impossible. A a letter denouncing Serb crimes and a letter rejecting attributions about this in an article they published cannot possibly be a disagreement over Srebrenica, by simple logic. That's deceit, transparently, by the editors, not the journalist. The print edition simply makes it much more obvious.
It's quite unfair to place the responsibility on the reporter, who appears have been given an assignment that she could not fulfill, so either she, or someone, constructed the required interview anyway.
The retraction by the reader's editor was honest and fair, restricted to the specific issues to which his attention was directed.
NC

Linguist - Author - Historian: Noam Chomsky

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 2:49 am
by Antero_Archive
Andrew L. wrote:So, there's a small tribe in Brazil whose language is so exceptional it might prove "the final nail in the coffin of Noam Chomsky's linguistic legacy."

The Pirahã appear to have no words or conceptual framework for understanding numbers and their grammar appears to be non-recursive. According to Chomsky's Universal Grammar, this is impossible.



Two articles:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/sci ... 362380.ece

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/interna ... 91,00.html

My god, this is incredibly interesting.

...really strange thing to say, but, what the hell is their lineage?

Linguist - Author - Historian: Noam Chomsky

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 3:03 pm
by Earwicker_Archive
Gramsci wrote:
Earwicker wrote:Just wondering if anyone read it (I haven't read all of this thread mind so this may already have been mentioned) and has any thoughts on the subsequent complaints recriminations etc etc that followed.

If you don't know nothing about it just type in a few key words into a search engine and you'll find plenty.


Yes, I read it and it was one of the worst pieces of journalism The Guardian has ever printed and they were right to remove it from their site.


Not sure I agree they were right to move it from their site but agree it was hatchet job. My chum was not in agreement. For several of his reasons why you might want to check this out

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re ... p?ID=20297

I'd like to hear folks' threepence worth.