Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

All in the mind
Total votes: 11 (44%)
May the force be with you
Total votes: 14 (56%)
Total votes: 25

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

131
Earwicker wrote:
I suspect (though could be wrong which is why I was asking) a lot of people who would vehemently oppose the idea of religious faith would be quite open to the idea of Chi.
If so I'd like to know why?


the answer to this question can be used to point out a widespread misunderstanding of eastern thought on this thread: qi isnt tied to any religion. in fact, many things (like qi, or yin and yang) that americans perceive as "mystical" have been pursued by plenty of non-religous people in asia, the same way that there is a mutual fascination in the west between the fields of philosophy and science.

in east asia, there was ancestor worship for a while, that was religion.
then came the yi jing, which was not religion.
then came taoism and confucianism, which were not religion.
then came the religious morphing of taoism, "religious taoism," which was a religion but was worlds apart from the original taoist thought associated with lao tzu and chuang tzu.
then came buddhism, which was religion.

the big western misunderstanding is that the philosophies of qi and yin/yang, which emerge mostly from the non-religious schools of thought surrounding the yi jing, confucianism, and taoism (not religious taoism), are supposedly tied to religion on a very esoteric level. they are not. these practices, unlike ancestor worship and buddhism, are not religious. the yi jing was a system that was meant to decipher the nature of chance on a half-scientific level (i say half-scientific because in addition to the math involved in the chance/probability structure of the yi jing, there was also tons of narrative which gave people reason to use it for mystical semi-religious divination, but it was widely used for other purposes). the yi jing was not tied to any religion and was used by people in their day to day evaluation of decisions and chance occurrences and interpretation of their outcomes and what not. then there was taoism, which was really a bunch of philosophy and not religion, and was subsequently adapted as religious taoism which has little to do with original taoism (and scholars have long argued that religious taoism contradicts original taoist texts in many ways). at around the same time, there was confucianism, which was not religion.

so anyhow, taoist thought, confucian thought, and yi jing analysis, were all used in the formation of practices involving qi and yin/yang. so was moism, coming from mo zi, another non-religious philosopher. such practices were not religious by nature and even involved scientific endeavors. these people all had different opinions on the nature and behavior of qi. of course, scientific explanations can be offered, but examine this notion: east asian countries churn out thousands of highly proficient engineers a year, at rates that make the western scientific community seem stagnant; and yet, the interest in qi remains prevalent enough in east asia (including the scientific community) that, evidently, eastern scientists have had no problem reconciling their extensive scientific knowledge with their own understanding of qi. in fact, since so many in the east have differing opinions on qi, im sure they see science as a great opportunity to affirm what might be correct in their own understanding, and disprove what may be incorrect. and again, qi is not religious, so its not like "ok well its their religion, of course they would find a way to reconcile their understanding of qi with their scientific knowledge"... qi isnt considered a fresh new age controversy to "debate," the way westerners see it... theyve been having these "debates" for years! for instance, confucian thinkers and taoists have very different understandings of the nature and behavior of qi. for that matter, we should bring up acupuncture: some people in east asia really dont believe it works, some believe it works one way, some believe it definitely cant work that way and must work another way. hence the widely different ways that acupuncture is practiced (the easiest difference to point out is that between chinese and japanese acupuncture). such differences in beliefs can be accounted for by different understandings of qi.

this thread and its semi-anthropological discouse on the matter of qi seems to rely heavily on the notion that all people in the east view qi as the same thing, as though they all had some induction into an esoteric inner circle of "qi masters".... not the case. if you want to have such a discussion, however, the topic of "mana" might be of more interest to you, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mana) since that is a somewhat similar idea which does tend to have more of a universal common understanding of what it is, among its practitioners. unlike people who are interested in qi, practitioners of mana don't really differ so much in their opinions of just what it is, and it certainly involves much more of an appeal to esoteric understanding.
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Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

132
in fact, since so many in the east have differing opinions on qi, im sure they see science as a great opportunity to affirm what might be correct in their own understanding, and disprove what may be incorrect.


I'm glad they are interested in looking at Chi scientifically. But the fact that Chi believers have so many divergent views on what exactly Chi is, makes it seem more likely in my view that it's only imaginary, or it's religious or mystical (not scientific).

Is Chi bioelectromagnetism? If not, how do you know?

f you now try to move your palms together you will feel some sort of resistance as if you would keep to little magnets in your hands (if you get the picture).


This sounds like a natural force that could be measured. If there really is resistance there.

but I think that for certain things we decide to do or not to do we have to depend on our experience or the experience of people that we trust.


If one is interested in understanding the natural world, science is the best method we have so far. With science anecdotal evidence isn't good enough, or information via authority ("people we trust.") That's because we can be fooled by others, and we can be fooled by our own eyes--our m ind can play tricks on us-- and all humans are biased, and often we believe what we want to believe. It used to be thought that ill people were possessed by demons; later germ theory was discovered. Especially when it comes the treating sickness, it's very important to distinguish between what is truly effective and safe vs. a treatment or remedy that only seems to work (this requires double blind studies).

It seems perfectly reasonable to think that the universe is full of energies that act in ways which our science has yet to measure or categorize.

It's a known scientific fact that the universe is full of energies. On the other hand, I'm sure there are a great many things that science has not yet and may never be able to measure. But if Chi is an energy running through everything, that causes a palpable "resistance," it sure sounds measurable to me.

I don't see any need for it to be documented in Western science.

Some say that Chi has healing properties (including in acupuncture). If Chi can heal people, that would be good to know. I'm not sure what you mean by "Western science;" the scientific method is widely used all over the world, including Asia. Is there an "Eastern science?"

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

134
newberry wrote:
in fact, since so many in the east have differing opinions on qi, im sure they see science as a great opportunity to affirm what might be correct in their own understanding, and disprove what may be incorrect.


I'm glad they are interested in looking at Chi scientifically. But the fact that Chi believers have so many divergent views on what exactly Chi is, makes it seem more likely in my view that it's only imaginary, or it's religious or mystical (not scientific).

Is Chi bioelectromagnetism? If not, how do you know?


im sure there are some both in the west and in the east who see qi as just bioelectricity, but many others view qi as something that permeates through both living and non-living objects, in which case the electric fields and charges in non-living objects (an extension of the bioelectricity analogy) do not count as "bioelectricity"... in fact, the belief that qi exists in both non-living materials/matter/spaces and the tissue of living organisms, is a widely held belief, though not the only one; your proposition of viewing it as mere bioelectricity really would just amout to viewing qi as another form of vitalism. so there you have it, given whatever you feel about vitalism, which has been discussed extensively in western philosophy and questioned by many scientists.

you say that
But the fact that Chi believers have so many divergent views on what exactly Chi is, makes it seem more likely in my view that it's only imaginary, or it's religious or mystical (not scientific).
.... but when you say "it's only imaginary" you must specify which of these "divergent views" you're talking of. are each of the "divergent views" false or only mystical, just because they share the etymology?

here's one such divergent view: what about the people who think it's just "breath" (one of the earliest meanings assigned to the word in east asia, and still one of the most common)? do you think that your own breathing is an illusion? that itself is an interesting proposition and im sure you could have quite a talk with a buddhist on that subject; scientifically, however, i think they've been able to define and describe breath quite well in both the east and the west. its not necessarily mysticism.
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Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

135
newberry... does your worldview include a place for love? as you must know, it is a belief common to pretty much all humans, round the world. its existence isn't something we will debate. but of course it can't be properly defined, much less measured or put into little bins like you seem to want to do with, well, everything, in order for it to be more than voodoo.

gravity still isn't fully understood. no graviton particle found yet, right? no idea how that force actually works. they have equations to describe its effects, but nobody can say how it works.

gravity can't be fully explained, can't be physically measured... love can't be properly defined, can't be measured in any way at all. yet these are real things.

does that sorta stuff bother you?
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Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

136
.... but when you say "it's only imaginary" you must specify which of these "divergent views" you're talking of. are each of the "divergent views" false or only mystical, just because they share the etymology?

What I mean is that there are many different ideas about what a "soul" is, or whether such a thing even exists. Same with god. There are all kinds of conflicting ideas about who he/she/they/it is, or if god even exists. However, when it comes to something natural and measurable by science, like a cell, we can all prettty much agree on what exactly that is.

If chi is mystical, it makes sense that it would be hard to define, and that many people would have different ideas about what it is. If it's natural energy, perhaps not.

newberry... does your worldview include a place for love? as you must know, it is a belief common to pretty much all humans, round the world. its existence isn't something we will debate. but of course it can't be properly defined, much less measured or put into little bins like you seem to want to do with, well, everything, in order for it to be more than voodoo.


I don't think rational, scientific thought is appropriate for all aspects of life. To be human is to be emotional and sometimes irrational, which is fine. When making art, it might be better to be irrational and to flex the imagination. I have no interest in putting "everything...into little bins." I am however a very curious person, and am interested in different cultures, and in science, and religion and the paranormal, and understanding the world I live in.

If you look at all of my posts on this thread, you'll see that I'm asking a lot of questions about chi. I'm not making sweeping generalizations about it, I'm trying to understand what it's about. And I do have my opinions as well. It seems like some here are defensive when tough questions are asked about chi.

gravity still isn't fully understood. no graviton particle found yet, right? no idea how that force actually works. they have equations to describe its effects, but nobody can say how it works.


Yes, there are a great many things that are not fully understood. However, many of us would love to understand gravity more. Like me for instance.

gravity can't be fully explained, can't be physically measured... love can't be properly defined, can't be measured in any way at all. yet these are real things.


Yes, that's true. The soul can't be measured, and god can't be measured. They may or may not exist at all. Wait, can't gravity be measured?

does that sorta stuff bother you?

No.

eta: earth's gravity:

Precise values of Earth's gravity, denoted g, vary depending on the location on the Earth's surface. The standard acceleration due to gravity at the Earth's surface is, by definition, 9.80665 m/s² (32.1740 ft/s²). This quantity is known variously as gn, ge (though this sometimes means the normal equatorial value on Earth, 9.78033 m/s²), g0, gee, or simply g (which is also used for the variable local value). The variation in gravitational strength per unit distance is measured in inverse seconds squared or in eotvoses, a cgs unit of gravitational gradient.

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

137
newberry wrote:
.... but when you say "it's only imaginary" you must specify which of these "divergent views" you're talking of. are each of the "divergent views" false or only mystical, just because they share the etymology?

What I mean is that there are many different ideas about what a "soul" is, or whether such a thing even exists. Same with god. There are all kinds of conflicting ideas about who he/she/they/it is, or if god even exists. However, when it comes to something natural and measurable by science, like a cell, we can all prettty much agree on what exactly that is.

If chi is mystical, it makes sense that it would be hard to define, and that many people would have different ideas about what it is. If it's natural energy, perhaps not.


And this is why it is in the same camp as religion. You can say that the idea of chi developed well before religions corrupted it (BCClark I mean) but it is the intangibility of it that allows people to develop religions out of these concepts.
There were ideas about spirits and mother goddesses etc before monotheistic religions began to dominate.

If Chi were something measurable then, even though people could still argue about what the thing being measured actually is, we could still say that it does actually exist and we could say what nurtures it, builds the energy etc etc

As it is we can't measure it so people can just make up any old shit.

Does that mean it doesn't exist?

No

Does it mean that it is some kind of force that can affect things outside the self?

Unlikely

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

138
newberry wrote:Especially when it comes the treating sickness, it's very important to distinguish between what is truly effective and safe vs. a treatment or remedy that only seems to work (this requires double blind studies).
but it's a fact that a lot of tested chemical remedies had and have terrible side effects. what you assume to be safe isn't that safe. I use to read the package insert of pills and even most of the over-the-counter-drugs have annoying side effects especially in high doses. it is also imaginable that the use of chemicals/synthetics to influence our organism caused diseases like MS or cancer or alzheimer........

I think I really get your rational point of view. but in my eyes you're a believer as well. if you have a health problem and get a remedy from your doctor that solves your problem you probably won't be interested in seeing the double blind study of that drug. that applies to alternative therapies too.

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

139
bassdriver wrote:
newberry wrote:Especially when it comes the treating sickness, it's very important to distinguish between what is truly effective and safe vs. a treatment or remedy that only seems to work (this requires double blind studies).
but it's a fact that a lot of tested chemical remedies had and have terrible side effects. what you assume to be safe isn't that safe.


I don't make assumptions about the safety of drugs or other treatments. I would rather rely on careful scientific testing. Of course I don't want to take something that has terrible side effects. Natural remedies can be dangerous or lethal as well as drugs. I'm for safe and effective treatments period. I don't care if they're old or new or Eastern or Western or natural or synthetic, as long as they are proven to be both safe and effective.


I use to read the package insert of pills and even most of the over-the-counter-drugs have annoying side effects especially in high doses. it is also imaginable that the use of chemicals/synthetics to influence our organism caused diseases like MS or cancer or alzheimer........


I think we're straying off topic here, but I'd gladly participate in another thread about drugs vs. other treatments, or whatever.

I think I really get your rational point of view. but in my eyes you're a believer as well. if you have a health problem and get a remedy from your doctor that solves your problem you probably won't be interested in seeing the double blind study of that drug. that applies to alternative therapies too.

No. I would definitely want to see the results of a properly conducted double blind study of a drug or other treatment I was considering. I would want to be careful that any treatment I take is proven to be safe and effective. eta: But I'm not sure I'm getting your point.

Chi, Ki, Qui - whatever

140
newberry wrote:I think we're straying off topic here, but I'd gladly participate in another thread about drugs vs. other treatments, or whatever.


yeah I got off topic. and it wasn't a very good idea. it's just hard for me to understand why you want to colour everything just black and white. I think there's a big range of helpful treatments between quackery and the scientific western medicine. I tried to point out that also scientifically proven treatments can do harm just to joggle your black/white view a little bit.

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