Frankie99 wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 2:35 pm

OrthodoxEaster wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 1:06 pm

Frankie99 wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 12:59 pm I'm saying the actions that preceded the state violence don't matter. You're looking at this from a strict historical "a preceded b preceded c therefore x" and that's not what I'm challenging. I'm saying the path would have been taken no matter what. It was there all along, just waiting for an event. 9/11 happened to be that event.

But there is very much a direct causality and correlation there.

It's weird to say, oh well, something else kinda sorta along those same lines would have happened anyway.

And—apologies if I'm reading you wrong—use that as a means to justify (?) public assassinations or terrorist attacks on targets you don't like. Which, historically, seem to fail to accomplish much (if untethered from broader and arguably way more effective social and economic actions), over and over.

Sorry if this sounds blunt, but so what? At best, nobody solves anything either way.

I can't make you get it, but you're not getting it. And you're mistaking things I'm saying completely because you want me to be saying something I'm not.

The state will use its power against the powerless. End.

You're dressing this up with a barrage of events that wind up causing the state to use violence and power. I'm saying these 2 things: You're right these these events happened and were related, AND you're wrong that one cause the other. The state is the cause, not the events.

You say tomato...

OrthodoxEaster wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 3:35 pm

Frankie99 wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 2:35 pm

OrthodoxEaster wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2024 1:06 pm

But there is very much a direct causality and correlation there.

It's weird to say, oh well, something else kinda sorta along those same lines would have happened anyway.

And—apologies if I'm reading you wrong—use that as a means to justify (?) public assassinations or terrorist attacks on targets you don't like. Which, historically, seem to fail to accomplish much (if untethered from broader and arguably way more effective social and economic actions), over and over.

Sorry if this sounds blunt, but so what? At best, nobody solves anything either way.

I can't make you get it, but you're not getting it. And you're mistaking things I'm saying completely because you want me to be saying something I'm not.

The state will use its power against the powerless. End.

You're dressing this up with a barrage of events that wind up causing the state to use violence and power. I'm saying these 2 things: You're right these these events happened and were related, AND you're wrong that one cause the other. The state is the cause, not the events.

You say tomato...

The problem is you are saying if not for this very specific series of events this one tomato would have never grown. I’m saying the tomato was always there.

It probably goes without saying that the narcissism inherent in vigilantism is problematic at best. Not that there isn't an equal level of narcissism bordering on sociopathy in the world of CEOs who view living breathing people as plotted points on a P/L statement, but the singular act of this shooting (and others, of course) and the subsequent celebration of it and what this means for our collective conscious is what is at the core of what really bothers me about it, and the reason for the poll/topic. Maybe the whole "take the high road" style argument is childlike and naive. I enjoyed reading through all the discussion this morning. My takeaway is that it's just sort of sad all around. Our health care system is FUBAR and ultimately only serves to fatten the bellies of the pigs who exploit us, and that exploitation has led us to the point where we are not simply desensitized to a very public execution style murder, but cheering for it and celebrating the murderer. I'm probably just rehashing my own point and not really contributing anything new to the argument, but I guess that's just where I'm at.

Maybe the whole "take the high road" style argument is childlike and naive.

I have concluded that it is.

"If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?"

Frankie99 wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2024 10:10 am

Maybe the whole "take the high road" style argument is childlike and naive.

I have concluded that it is.

"If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?"

Exactly.

I think what people have trouble admitting is that tactics that have worked in some situations won’t work in others.

Take any approach . . .

-Turning the other cheek
-Complaining online
-Cyberbullying
-Writing letters to your congressman
-Petitions
-Lobbying
-Protesting
-Sit-ins
-Voting
-Vandalism
-Harassment
-Hunger strikes
-Sanctions
-Rioting
-Targeting select people with violence
-Staging coups
-Wars
-Terrorist attacks

. . . and on and on.

You could likely find examples of each of these things above affecting political change, as well as counter-examples of each of them being ineffective, even causing the pendulum to swing in the opposite direction. There’s also a distinction to be made between incremental, piecemeal victories, and long-lasting/net positives. And the latter can be undone, sometimes within a generation or so, bringing us all back to square one (or worse!). Yay, the march of history.


Anyway, it looks like they’ve caught the guy, just arrested in Altoona.

Edit: Bring on the Nintendo/Luigi memes.

DaveA wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2024 12:14 pm Anyway, it looks like they’ve caught the guy, just arrested in Altoona.

Edit: Bring on the Nintendo/Luigi memes.

Appears the suspect is a prep-school kid who went to an Ivy League college.

And was arrested at McDonald's.

Make of all that what you will.

Had gobbledygook socio-political views and possible mental illness in recent months. So, like every shooter basically.

OrthodoxEaster wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2024 4:11 pmAppears the suspect is a prep-school kid who went to an Ivy League college.

And was arrested at McDonald's.

I'm waiting for McDonald's to release a statement about how they don't condone political violence.