Premier Rock Forum

hellyes!! wrote:

Adam CR wrote:For reasons too subtle for me to even guess at, this macho, cock-driven, oft-violent, sweat-stinking, dirty, nerdy thing we find at uncomfortable perimeter of rock is far, far more popular with males than females. Don't ask me why, it just is.

There are some things which for reasons of tradition, historical societal pressure and perhaps even genetics are more popular with one gender than the other. Sure, in time hopefully the tradition and societal pressure will die away, but in the mean time it's really not fair to blame the males who inhabit this forum for the lack of female members.

My only response to this is that I AM A FEMALE who also PLAYS THE DRUMS, therefore your theory about women being less interested in this "dirty, nerdy...blah blah blah thing we call rock" holds no water in my opinion. I can't count the number of women who hear that I am a drummer and immediately follow it up with a comment, such as, "That is so cool! I always wanted to play the drums but I was always so intimidated because the only musicians I knew were guys..."

Fortunately for me I was just naive enough to not give that stuff a second thought so I asked my parents for a drumset. However, I am terribly disappointed when I think about all the women who would have otherwised picked up an instrument if they weren't intimidated by the boys club. Hell, I have gay male musician friends who are sometimes turned off by the music scen because of the locker room banter that goes on.

Wait - I think you actually are helping to prove Adam CR's point a little bit...

acquaintances of hellyes!! wrote:I always wanted to play the drums but I was always so intimidated because the only musicians I knew were guys...

I think that was part of what he was trying to say(?)

Adam CR wrote:"There are some things which for reasons of tradition, historical societal pressure and perhaps even genetics are more popular with one gender than the other."

I do agree that it is shitty that they felt intimidated! - but the bottom line (unfortunately) is that they wanted to do something, BUT _________.

In the world of people who want to do things, we all have our own BUTs... those who really REALLY want to do something will find a way to work around their BUTs... sometimes the BUT is a true show-stopper, othertimes it is perceived as one, although it really shouldn't be, y'know?

How many of thes BUTs are true show-stoppers? (rhetorical question alert!):

- I want to get some higher education, BUT I can't afford it.
(use as an excuse, or scrounge up any scholarships you can and work multiple jobs?)

- I want to quit smoking, BUT my spouse isn't interested in quitting yet.
(some might quit anyways, some might use this an excuse)

- I want to get into acting, BUT all my friends will make fun of me.
(some people will go for it anyways, while some will bow to peer pressure)

- I want to date Johnny/Mary, BUT my parents will have a fit
(some people would date Johnny/Mary anyway - parents' fits be damned)

- We want to have a baby, BUT we're not ready yet
(folks having babies all day every day - and they aren't always planned!)

So anyways - it sucks, but I don't think Adam CR's *observation* of the sucky thing was totally off the mark. I would honestly wish for them not to feel pressure to avoid being musicians, but you can't deny that the pressure is unfortunately there (although someone with enough desire presumably wouldn't cave to that pressure so easily anyhow? So are just the casual enthusiasts being scared off? How bad is that? - that could be another discussion point, I suppose - do we need more artists that only kinda sorta want to do something... (maybe yes, maybe no?))

Crap, I'm know I'm just rambling now, but I have to bail and get back to at least a minimal semblance of 'work'...

rayj wrote:Seconded. For the record, my aunt and several aquaintances are lesbians, and I don't think I've offended them with my attitudes. If I did, they would most likely let me know.

i'll bet you've got a black friend too, eh?

Nobody here meant to be disrespectfull.
Unlike some people here,Im able to laugh at myself.
So,if you are touchy,humorless,then you should ask yourself why.
Life is just too short to be taken that seriously.

Arson Smith wrote:

hellyes!! wrote:

Adam CR wrote:For reasons too subtle for me to even guess at, this macho, cock-driven, oft-violent, sweat-stinking, dirty, nerdy thing we find at uncomfortable perimeter of rock is far, far more popular with males than females. Don't ask me why, it just is.

There are some things which for reasons of tradition, historical societal pressure and perhaps even genetics are more popular with one gender than the other. Sure, in time hopefully the tradition and societal pressure will die away, but in the mean time it's really not fair to blame the males who inhabit this forum for the lack of female members.

My only response to this is that I AM A FEMALE who also PLAYS THE DRUMS, therefore your theory about women being less interested in this "dirty, nerdy...blah blah blah thing we call rock" holds no water in my opinion. I can't count the number of women who hear that I am a drummer and immediately follow it up with a comment, such as, "That is so cool! I always wanted to play the drums but I was always so intimidated because the only musicians I knew were guys..."

Fortunately for me I was just naive enough to not give that stuff a second thought so I asked my parents for a drumset. However, I am terribly disappointed when I think about all the women who would have otherwised picked up an instrument if they weren't intimidated by the boys club. Hell, I have gay male musician friends who are sometimes turned off by the music scen because of the locker room banter that goes on.

Wait - I think you actually are helping to prove Adam CR's point a little bit...

acquaintances of hellyes!! wrote:I always wanted to play the drums but I was always so intimidated because the only musicians I knew were guys...

I think that was part of what he was trying to say(?)

Adam CR wrote:"There are some things which for reasons of tradition, historical societal pressure and perhaps even genetics are more popular with one gender than the other."

I do agree that it is shitty that they felt intimidated! - but the bottom line (unfortunately) is that they wanted to do something, BUT _________.

In the world of people who want to do things, we all have our own BUTs... those who really REALLY want to do something will find a way to work around their BUTs... sometimes the BUT is a true show-stopper, othertimes it is perceived as one, although it really shouldn't be, y'know?

How many of thes BUTs are true show-stoppers? (rhetorical question alert!):

- I want to get some higher education, BUT I can't afford it.
(use as an excuse, or scrounge up any scholarships you can and work multiple jobs?)

- I want to quit smoking, BUT my spouse isn't interested in quitting yet.
(some might quit anyways, some might use this an excuse)

- I want to get into acting, BUT all my friends will make fun of me.
(some people will go for it anyways, while some will bow to peer pressure)

- I want to date Johnny/Mary, BUT my parents will have a fit
(some people would date Johnny/Mary anyway - parents' fits be damned)

- We want to have a baby, BUT we're not ready yet
(folks having babies all day every day - and they aren't always planned!)

So anyways - it sucks, but I don't think Adam CR's *observation* of the sucky thing was totally off the mark. I would honestly wish for them not to feel pressure to avoid being musicians, but you can't deny that the pressure is unfortunately there (although someone with enough desire presumably wouldn't cave to that pressure so easily anyhow? So are just the casual enthusiasts being scared off? How bad is that? - that could be another discussion point, I suppose - do we need more artists that only kinda sorta want to do something... (maybe yes, maybe no?))

Crap, I'm know I'm just rambling now, but I have to bail and get back to at least a minimal semblance of 'work'...

ergh. i always do this...i say i'm done and i'm not really done. i just wanted to say that i see what you are getting at here but i wasn't implying that these women are intimidated by societal pressures (as in "it's not lady-like to play in a rock band so i'm gonna go take ballet lessons instead")...i'm talking about women who genuinely want to play but don't tough it out for any extended time because they aren't thick-skinned enough to cope with the boys club stuff that goes on in the music scene. this is 99% of the reason women form bands with other women or gay men.

think about it...reverse the situation...you want to be a ballet dancer but you are a straight male in a world of women and gay men. sorry, but you will likely struggle to keep your enthusiasm when you feel like you don't relate to your peers as much as you'd like. or worse, you are rejected by your peers. anyway, i'm getting off on a whole other issue here.

Kayte R. wrote:

rayj wrote:Seconded. For the record, my aunt and several aquaintances are lesbians, and I don't think I've offended them with my attitudes. If I did, they would most likely let me know.

i'll bet you've got a black friend too, eh?

OK. If I have offended anyone with my bad attitudes, please color me asshole. Jesus christ.

242sumner wrote:Nobody here meant to be disrespectfull.
Unlike some people here,Im able to laugh at myself.
So,if you are touchy,humorless,then you should ask yourself why.
Life is just too short to be taken that seriously.

again, this is example of my point earlier. just because you don't like sexist or homosexual jokes does not mean you don't have a sense of humor. i may be wrong here, but i think the original point rachael was trying to make is that sometimes the joking gets a little overboard. a joke here and there is fine but every so often there tends to be a "wave" of these types of jokes. it just gets tired after awhile. i think that was the point bumble was trying to emphasize earlier, as well.

hellyes!! wrote: think about it...reverse the situation...you want to be a ballet dancer but you are a straight male in a world of women and gay men. sorry, but you will likely struggle to keep your enthusiasm when you feel like you don't relate to your peers as much as you'd like.

How would my insecurities in this case be the fault or responsibility of others? How is the inaction of some people to join a particular forum the fault of those who already comment on that forum? The only ones stopping them from joining are themselves.

hellyes!! wrote:

242sumner wrote:Nobody here meant to be disrespectfull.
Unlike some people here,Im able to laugh at myself.
So,if you are touchy,humorless,then you should ask yourself why.
Life is just too short to be taken that seriously.

again, this is example of my point earlier. just because you don't like sexist or homosexual jokes does not mean you don't have a sense of humor. i may be wrong here, but i think the original point rachael was trying to make it that sometimes the joking gets a little overboard. a joke here and there is fine but every so often there tends to be a "wave" of these types of jokes. it just gets tired after awhile.

Then ignore it.

El Protoolio wrote:

hellyes!! wrote:

242sumner wrote:Nobody here meant to be disrespectfull.
Unlike some people here,Im able to laugh at myself.
So,if you are touchy,humorless,then you should ask yourself why.
Life is just too short to be taken that seriously.

again, this is example of my point earlier. just because you don't like sexist or homosexual jokes does not mean you don't have a sense of humor. i may be wrong here, but i think the original point rachael was trying to make it that sometimes the joking gets a little overboard. a joke here and there is fine but every so often there tends to be a "wave" of these types of jokes. it just gets tired after awhile.

Then ignore it.

i did...i walked away from the forum for a quite a few months.

El Protoolio wrote:

hellyes!! wrote: think about it...reverse the situation...you want to be a ballet dancer but you are a straight male in a world of women and gay men. sorry, but you will likely struggle to keep your enthusiasm when you feel like you don't relate to your peers as much as you'd like.

How would my insecurities in this case be the fault or responsibility of others? How is the inaction of some people to join a particular forum the fault of those who already comment on that forum? The only ones stopping them from joining are themselves.

It has nothing to do with insecurities. If that's what you think I am getting at then you aren't thinking deeply enough. It's about community and feeling a sense of being welcomed and respected.

I think those who are being extremely defensive here are doing so because they like the good old boys club just the way it is...They don't want no women or homos coming in here with their whining and complaining ruining their fun. that's what i think.