lets say we did bomb iran and kill millions of innocents... what's the worst that can happen?

The poppy crop in Afghan is going strong so we are actually all set for 2008, setting off a 3rd world war because of incompetent diplomacy would only be gravy

Carnival of Souls wrote:

sparky wrote:I guess we should bomb them then!

How many Iranians have you met, clever-dick?

Fucksnout,

Did I say bomb them? Anywhere in my above post does it mentions that, motherfucker? I merely commented on the noted human rights abuses alreadly documented in Iran, including the persecution and execution of homosexuals. Do I have to make it any clearer to you?

"clever-dick"

Fuck you.

Don't go all diddums on me, sweety-pie.

Someone linked a report which attempts to debunk some of the xenophobic stereotypes about Iranians.

You then chirp in with a completely irrelevant point about human rights abuses perpetuated by Iran's government. Which, clearly, was an attempt to invalidate any arguments presented in the report that refute the lumpen racist stereotype of middle-eastern people.

Which is to say, dearest, that I am calling your interruption xenophobic, as you attempted to reinforce an ideological viewpoint which is frequently cited by those who wish to bomb Iran, or indeed anywhere "not us".

"Clever-dick" is an English colloquialism commonly used for those who pompously throw out some line of bullshit in a snidey manner. As it has offended you, I shall withdraw it and replace it with "smart-arse".

x

Carnival of Souls wrote: I was merely commenting on certain facts and state of affairs. So please, no ad hominem arguments. I am mentioning something specific in Iran.

Which has barely anything to do with the subject that you were replying to. This is akin to my mentioning a documentary about Scottish housewives and someone chirping in with "does it mention that Britain and America have slaughtered over half a million Iraqis?"

Your accusation of our using ad hominen arguments is weak, given the clear direction your comment takes us: any depiction of ordinary Iranians is invalid. Which is a short hop, skip and jump from saying ordinary Iranians are "invalid", or criminal, since their government executes gay people. Which seems to serve no other purpose than to make you feel better about their being bombed - "they had it coming/it's for their own good." Otherwise why your snide interjection? Unpleasant.

I got back to work today and met up with my colleague Kam* who'd just got back from visiting family in Iran over the summer. He was showing me some movies on his camera phone of him shooting some huge elephant gun on his uncle's farm and another one of his uncle and friends smoking their afternoon opium on the rooftop.

(Apparently, drug addiction in Iran is epidemic, approaching something like 20M addicts, mostly crack and crystal meth)

Where he stayed was pretty rural, up near the Afghan border and he'd been walking down the street wearing shorts and pink socks, which had made everyone in town stare. His uncle quietly advised him that men in Iran didn't wear pink socks!

He said that on the other hand, Tehran was as much Beverley Hills as anything else.

*perhaps the only Iranian you'll ever meet with a Belfast accent.

Cranius wrote:(Apparently, drug addiction in Iran is epidemic, approaching something like 20M addicts, mostly crack and crystal meth)

That's a bit of a counter to the "religion is the opium of the people" line, isn't it? Or rather, have the best of both worlds: religion and opium.

Crystal meth: wow.

I'm back in town on Thursday night and next Monday night, a wedding in the middle. Might try to catch the mighty ToSers on Thursday.

sparky wrote: arguments presented in the report that refute the lumpen racist stereotype of middle-eastern people.

I'm fairly certain Middle Eastern isn't a race. I certainly don't think Jews and Muslims consider themselves the same race, yet both are middle eastern?

Do Suni and Shiite consider themselves the same race?

I'm also 97% sure that if anyone on this board was forced to live in Iran for 5 years there would be some serious man tears

Hexpane wrote:

sparky wrote: arguments presented in the report that refute the lumpen racist stereotype of middle-eastern people.

I'm fairly certain Middle Eastern isn't a race. I certainly don't think Jews and Muslims consider themselves the same race, yet both are middle eastern?

Do Suni and Shiite consider themselves the same race?

I'm also 97% sure that if anyone on this board was forced to live in Iran for 5 years there would be some serious man tears

Well, I could say it is bigoted if you prefer. However, given that - as you point out - many disparate groups are lumped together for blanket criticism, the thinking is racist. Similar to how in the UK people of Bangladeshi, Pakistani, Indian, Sri Lankan and probably a fair few more ethnicities are referred to as Pakis or Wogs. The lumping in of vastly different groups for stereotyping is racist.

With regards to life in Iran, we would certainly be denied many of our rights that we are used to. But, back to the subject of Rick's original post, this, and the state of the people themselves, seems to have been vastly exaggerated. Which is why documentaries such as the one mentioned act as a useful corrective. Likewise, the stories Cranius has passed on from his Iranian friend in older posts debunks these stereotypes.

This image of the average Iranian as some poor, downtrodden, and impotent subject is dangerous, and from many reports, untrue. It is redolent of the propaganda put about before the Iraq invasion, which made as if the Iraqi people could not but be improved by violence from without. Whilst many - and I shamefully include myself in this category - accepted this logic at face value in the run-up and duration of the war, this too has been truly debunked by the misery evident throughout the country now. And Iran is, for all its theocratic afflictions, in a far better state than Iraq was under Saddam's rule.

rayj wrote:I was about to say...

...ever been to the South?

Or Laramie, WY/Falls City, NE/Washington, DC?

Thanks Rick. The audio is not up yet, but I'll bookmark it for later.

That blog looks very interesting from a cursory look, full of fascinating details. For example:

Azadeh Moaveni wrote:Not so long ago, the only place in Tehran that I might spy a pair of Dolce and Gabbana heels would have been in a smuggled copy of Vogue. These days, I need only walk through my neighborhood. High above a busy intersection where hard-liners hang “Death to America” banners looms a huge D&G billboard featuring a pair of pointy alligator-skin heels and a rather exquisite espresso-colored handbag. The Italian label is not the first to entice my neighbors with the promise of designer brand status: Last winter, an Escada billboard appeared over the local square, advertising “casual luxury look” accessories. As if none of this were enough, two weeks ago Iran’s first full-scale Western boutique opened for business nearby. The first day, as they hung up the Benetton sign and filled the windows with satin flip-flops and beach totes, I stood outside gawking, wondering what the Afghan day laborers waiting on the corner thought of the giant posters of blonde women in effusive motion. Overnight, the women in the poster had the tops of their heads chopped off (no veil), but their frozen smiles still beckon shoppers inside to buy $40 fuschia mini-skirts for girls under six.

These contradictions are intriguing, and it makes one wonder how it looks to see our own locales with alien eyes.

(Of very slight relevance to this train of thought, the first McDonalds in Kreuzberg has just opened to much local controversy. McDonalds! In anarchist Kreuzberg! The anarchist graffiti has sadly had little impact, I fear; my flatmate tells me that it already seems to be doing good business.)

EDIT: I meant to add, for a proper reply to your post, this frequent excited talk of a "New Hitler" is also telling. It is as if we say it enough times, "New Hitler" will emerge! Again, I find myself wondering if on some deeper level these excited people feel that they really need this New Hitler. It is the political-academic equivalent of the Hollywood disaster movie. (Second edit to remove unintended inference on my part.)

Rick Reuben wrote:

Hexpane wrote:

sparky wrote: arguments presented in the report that refute the lumpen racist stereotype of middle-eastern people.

I'm fairly certain Middle Eastern isn't a race.

Sparky didn't say 'race', he said 'people'. There are Middle Eastern people. In America, most people probably do think that Arab is a race, when it is not.

Not going to split hairs but racism usually implies race.

Sparky clarified his point later on tho.... Biology has already debunked the idea of race or white/black/asian as race or subspecies so saying ARab is not a race but some other label is.. still not supported by science.

Which leaves us w/ the ever changing "commonly accepted groupings" / lineage / tribal decent
black/asian/white/jew/arab/indian/pacific island that are impossible to keep defined controlled etc... and are filled w/ giant gaps in the historical record.

In reality if you lined up a Kurd/Suni/Greek/Turk/Jew against the wall naked from the waist up then splashed milk on them, which one's chest hair would hold the most liquid?
Answer: depends on if its goat or cow milk