Premier Rock Forum

sleepkid wrote: As has been said, Labour, by being a vague purposeless pandering heap of dung, has helped the Tory vote. Hmmm. I know what you mean, but I think this is looking too much at the parties and not enough at the electorate. Tories win an absolute majority, UKIP get 12% of the vote nationwide - are you saying that, Labour-SNP shift aside, the Labour party made those people that right-leaning? I'm a Labour supporter, just to be clear, but I think the main problem with the Labour party in this election was their attempts to reach a right-leaning electorate, with their immigration "policy" (I use the term loosely) and so on. I would desperately love the Labour party to have moved to the left, to have fought harder against austerity, to have pushed a much more positive message on immigration and so on, but I think the party thought (rightly or wrongly) this would marginalise them, pushing them into the kind of territory the Green Party finds itself in, more "ethical", more ideologically sound, but unelectable. So they went after those centre/right-leaning people. And still lost. I'm not saying that was the right thing to do, but I don't know whose votes, other than some that went to the Greens, they would have gained by placing themselves more to the left at the start of the campaign. My guess is that Scotland was already lost to Labour after the referendum campaign, and that even a severe move to the left would have done little to remedy that situation, whilst losing people from the centre.Our elections are effectively decided by middle-class people worrying they might be worse off financially. The thing I will never understand is the people in the middle. The undecideds. The last minute mind-changers. I can understand people being torn between Labour and Green, or (pre-referendum) Labour and SNP, or between Tory and UKIP, but who the fuck would be torn between Tory and Labour? For all the short comings of the campaign and the policies, I thought the ideological lines ended up being quite clearly drawn. Who isn't sure how important the NHS or the welfare state is to them?

sleepkid wrote:The Labour to SNP shift is the most clear cut and obvious, but Labour has been hemmorhaging support for years - probably by their insipid moves towards the centre and right.Equally you could argue that a lot of traditional Labour electorate has moved to the right, and not all of that is down to failings in Labour. There's been a massive societal shift, certainly in England. I think we are unlikely to see a successful truly ideologically-led left-leaning government anywhere in what is currently the UK for a century. Maybe in an independent Scotland. I hope so.The whole Blair era was brought about precisely by successfully pandering to those voters, rather than a clear ideological stance. People felt the Tories had run out of ideas and steam, weren't efficient, and they wanted change. It's the death of any ideology or clear political direction for a party, and the triumph of "who will make me better off?", "who seems most competent?" Get big business on your side, and you're away. A lethal cocktail of a shift from public to private ownership of housing, of key industries and utilities, and wild inflation in house prices, means that the people who decide elections aren't those who want more, or want better, they're the ones who don't want to lose what they've got, and will go with the most reliable-looking hand on the helm. The more people have to lose, the more risk-averse and the less outward-looking they become.

My most sincere condolences to everyone living in the British Isles right now. At least Tatcherites were convinced of what they were doing, this are just hypocritical cunts. Right now in Spain we are facing up a very simmilar outcome, so maybe we can all go live together in... I don't know, maybe some indonesian isle? and drink ourselves to death.

Well i hope everyone is loaded already because if not the next 5 years will be brutal. NHS will be fucked inevitably as well so hope everyone is physically well or has some private healthcare insurance already because make no mistake if not you will be fucked. Everyman for himself and all that.

Joesf K is missing the subtext.Why were people like Rupert Murdoch backing the SNP in Scotland yet at same time having loads of anti-SNP stuff in own press in England ?Likes of Murdoch has got exactly what he wanted - a Tory majority government and the SNP vote in Scotland.The Tories played on anti-Scottish rehtric by suggesting a Labour vote would only mean a coalition of Labour and of the SNP and that Scotland would be holding England to ransom and all that.It is classic divide and conquer stuff .And it has worked. Many (stupid) people in England probably did end up voting Tory in fear of SNP ending up controlling England in their minds. The nationalistic talk Tory tactic worked. There was many marginal seats that Labour could have won and lost in Midlands etc for example.You have been played. Again : -

big\_dave wrote:It's equally both the SNP and the Labour Party's fault. They both fucked up - two parties who failed to compromise because that would have put the interests of everyone in the UK above the the political careers of their parliamentary superstars. This was a rare instance where a mutual compromise could well have forced both parties to further to the left and seen groups like Green and Plaid take up some of that precious space held by the Lib Dems. Which I dare say the majority of their constituents would have wanted. But no, optics came first. Careers came first. Cunts.Bollocks. Again. Do the arithmetic Dave. Scotland's votes couldn't have saved Labour. Again, to govern the UK you need to win over England. Labour failed to do that. If you want to blame anyone blame the English. Too many fuckers voting Tory & UKIP.

simmo wrote:Just devastating. Feeling crushed. 5 more years of this. Further Education has taken a 40% cut since 2010. There will be more. My job is becoming untenable, these kids' futures are fucked. Looking at houses in Glasgow on RightMoveFeeling the pain. Bitter sweet result for me. Historic Scottish result but horrible destructive outcome for the UK.Glasgow's good but Ayrshire (30 minutes drive/train from Glasgow) maybe better.

night\_tools wrote:My immediate reaction to the result is that it's hard to take much solace from the SNPs gains in Scotland when their effectiveness in Parliament has been totally negated by Labour's implosion.Five more years of the Tories is a disaster for everyone except the mega rich.Maybe it will be possible for clear thinking and honest SNP MPs' ideas to influence the remnants of Labour to do the right thing during debates/votes? Ok, Tories have a majority but will find it difficult to implement shitty Tory-like policies if the weight of correct-thinking is against them and the UK public see that?

big\_dave wrote:What will the SNP do (for example) if Cameron's condition for further fiscal independence is support for an EU exit referendum? Scottish independence is a wooden spoon compared to EU membership. Are they commiting to opposing the Tory drive to exit Europe? Are they committed to opposing austerity? They're certainly not going to be able to protect the NHS.Have you been under a rock for the past weeks? Have you seen any Nicola Sturgeon's speeches / debate. Of course the SNP oppose austerity and have put forward the mechanics to do so.NHS in Scotland devolved to Scottish parliament but if the NHS UK is debated and in WM with Scots MPS voting, then you can be sure they'll vote against any policy to harm it. Anything else would be hypocritical.Wooden spoon? If Scotland is Independent then it will remain an EU member. If England tries to remove UK from EU then Independence will be assured. Conversely, that threat is probably enough to keep UK in EU.

big\_dave wrote:That's exactly why I describe them as being in a Lib Dem position. ie, the hopes are that they stick to their guns because anything else would be hypocritical - but the Lib Dems immediately turned to hypocrisy to save themselves. I hope for the Scots that they stand by their promises, but it's more likely that their commitment to the albatross of independence (they are nationalists, first and foremost) will mean compromises when it comes to opposing austerity. They had to know that Tory money was supporting them against Labour, they had to. I don't know how devolution works in Scotland, but the problem is that a lot of the promises the SNP make clearly require them having independent powers that they don't have yet. I hope they get both, but the question is whether they decide to put the horse in front of the cart or not.The SNP position is NOTHING like the position that the Lib Dems were in. SNP is NOT in coalition with the Tories. The Lib Dems were. Surely you must understand this?I'm missing the Tory money bit. Explain?