Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:I think, if you go back and read the thread, I wasn't antagonistic until I was provoked.

It doesn't matter. You are responsible for your own behavior. That goes for everyone, of course, not just you.

Are your arguments here effective or ineffective?

Have a good weekend.

Anyone heard "The Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbeque"? Anyone? Comments on this one? I'd even take a "yeah, Zappa wishes!" from capnreverb...

Just please, no more talk about your feelings. Save that for 8th grade social studies.

Naysayers -- why is "The Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbeque" a bad composition?

I'm talking about the version on "Weasels Ripped My Flesh", 1970.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:I was lauging my ass off when writing that. I'm not mad at all. Well, maybe a bit mad in the "mad hatter" sense...

But pardon my French. If people are speaking in French, it makes sense to speak in French. These are just words, kids. They can't hurt you. I just needed to communicate on a level that some people only understand. If you think these hurt you, you're halfway to becoming a fascist. Now all you have to do is pass some laws to make sure nothing perceived as hurtful is uttered...

OK, you missed the point. The point was that it's really funny to say that I get mad when people disagree with me, and then show the extent of your French. It was just a humorous juxtaposition. Nobody's feelings got hurt by your juvenile barbs, and nobody here is advocating anything close to censorship.

Then again, people unfamiliar with Frank Zappa may also be unfamiliar with these concepts. I have yet to be proven wrong.

Ha! That's fantastic! I suppose the founding fathers were listening to the Mothers when they enshrined this kind of idea in our constitution? Because otherwise, where would they have gotten it?

Seems like ironyengine (who admits to liking Zappa) gets this. Not the biggest sample size to prove my point, but so far this is the case.

Oh and...

You have not once addressed Mr. Zappa's artistic endeavors,

I listened to a bunch of his songs, and I told you what I thought of them and why I didn't like them. No, I didn't describe in detail what the songs sounded like. I didn't see the point in boring everybody, frankly. We break Rule 3 because it makes it more interesting. Your Rule 3 violations make it less interesting, and to be honest, I think it's more than a little out of place on Crap/Not Crap. Don't get me wrong and fly off the handle: I'm not saying Shut Up, and I'm not saying that somebody should Shut You Up, I'm just saying that detailed descriptions of individual songs are rarely found in C/NC threads, and for a reason.

and you misquoted me to make it look like I said opinions are valid in a debate, when in actuality I went on to describe the material... The whole description was condensed to a parenthetical notation.

I didn't think it was necessary to waste space, and everybody's time, reprinting what you had just written. Again, if anyone wanted to read it, they could have just scrolled up.

I briefly gave my opinion, and then said my opinion doesn't matter in a debate, here's a discussion of the material. But you don't know enough about Zappa to discuss his material.

And you don't know enough about C/NC to not discuss it.

I was mistaken. It was Placeholder who made up the elitist argument, probably because the person on page 1 made some pretty elitist arguments (the Ishtar soundtrack thing is really funny!).

http://www.electrical.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=12903#12903

Nonetheless, good points were made, and I would have to say, it takes a bit of effort to ignore Zappa's pop music, and listen to his true musical achievements.

That's mighty white of you.

The you jumped on the bandwagon, a little bit, but weren't as delusional as Placeholder, who put a lot of words I just never said in my mouth.

You were the one who went into (what I am assuming to be) a sarcastic dialog about how great 3 chord songs are, and that you'd rather listen to the same 3 chords as long as the singer was singing something you wish you had said.

I guess a careless reading of what I said might lead someone to represent it in those terms. Let's go to the tape:

I wrote:OK, I'm listening to some Zappa, and boy, it's not that great. Some of it's pretty impressive, which to me is rarely a good thing. I'd much rather hear two guitars*, bass and drums and some guy/gal singing like yelling about something real simple like a car or a love affair than this.... art. If I want to be impressed by music, I don't want to be impressed by how many instruments a dude could write parts for in one composition, or how fast or complex a guitar solo can be, or how clever and wittily nonsensical the lyrics can be, or how well a dude can demonstrate his ability to blend punkfunkdoowopbebophiphopsurfskarastabossanovaCRAP! Impress me by playing the same 3 chords I always hear, and making it sound like a brand new song. Impress me by playing and singing with an intensity that isn't related to speed or volume. Impress me by writing lyrics that make me say not I wish I'd thought of that, but I've been thinking of that all along, and this fucker went and wrote it down. This Zappa, it is soulless, it's art, it's jazz fusion, it's complicated, it's prog, it's everything I don't like about rock and roll, and it's Crap.

First off, there's no sarcasm in that. None. When I say that I'd rather hear a simple song, that doesn't mean that I only like simple songs, just that I prefer them to Zappa. When I say that certain things impress me more than the technically impressive things that Zappa does, I don't mean I only like those things, I just mean that I like those things better than what Zappa's doing. And note that I never said, as you repeat ad nauseam, that I only like lyrics that I wish I'd said. Look at the quote, you'll see it's not dramatically, but significantly different than that.

I like some 3 chord stuff. PH's "Nadir's Big Chance" has very simple songs, as it's a satire of an arrogant rock star who spends more time on his hair and banging chicks, than on music. Joe's Garage (the song) is very simple. Again, a satire of the ubiquitous, talentless rock musician:

FZ wrote:And the same old chords goin' over 'n' over
Became a symphony
We would play it again 'n' again 'n' again
'Cause it sounded good to me
ONE MORE TIME!

We could jam in Joe's Garage
His mama was screamin', "TURN IT DOWN!"
We was playin' the same old song
In the afternoon 'n' sometimes we would
Play it all night long
It was all we knew, and easy too
So we wouldn't get it wrong
Even if you played it on a saxophone
We thought we was pretty good

See, I'll take your word for it, I guess, but that doesn't sound like satire to me, it sounds like a celebration of one of the finer things in life, high energy, straight ahead, fast and simple rock and roll. If Zappa's dissing this experience, that's a big point against Zappa in my book.

The funny thing is, Zappa is incapable of making a simple pop song.

And that's an even bigger point against Zappa in my book. I don't know if this is true or not, but if so, that probably pushes me back into the Crap camp on this.

From the purposefully out-of-tune horns,

Wrong on purpose is still wrong.

to the 20 girls clog dancing, his meticulous attention to detail and "hard work" makes for an unconvincing satire of a simple rock band. Then again, compared to "Inca Roads", this is a simple pop song. Ah, if only Interpol could have showed him the way...

Ugh. I guess I finally got it through your head that I don't like the Sex Pistols, so now you're using Interpol. Try Modern Lovers. "Roadrunner" is one the best (approximately) three minutes ever, and by your own testimony, something Frank Zappa is incapable of. If you want to make sarcastic comments about the music I like, use Modern Lovers.

Ok, I'm going to go running... Network is still a Nyetwork. But let's talk about "Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbeque"... please?

Against my better judgment, I may actually take you up on this. I download music from one legal site, and zero illegal ones. So, if they don't have it, I won't listen to it. Unless it's on Joe's Garage, because I own that. I'll check...

And nice Groening reference, ad verecundiam though it may have been.

bumble wrote:

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:I think, if you go back and read the thread, I wasn't antagonistic until I was provoked.

It doesn't matter. You are responsible for your own behavior. That goes for everyone, of course, not just you.

Are your arguments here effective or ineffective?

Have a good weekend.

Have a great weekend!

It does matter. Courtesy (as you should remember from your debate ballot) is a relative thing. Who can respect someone who doesn't stick up for themselves? I stick up for myself. Just today, while running, I had to run in place while waiting at a signal. This chubby woman in her car pointed at me and just started laughing away... I looked right at her and said "What's so funny? It looks like you could use some exercise." That fucking pig is why my health insurance premium is so high. I'm sick of having to pay for all of these fat asses' bypass surgeries.

Believe you me, there's nothing more pathetic than an emasculated turd that can't defend himself. If someone insults you, you have the right to fight back. Go back and read the thread... Who insulted whom first? I know it sounds like "he started it first" and very juvenile, but it's more akin to self-defense.

I personally can't respect anyone who takes shit and doesn't counter it. Even non-violent direct action masters like Gandhi and MLK didn't sit back and take it... Is you encouraging Uncle Tom behavior? I'm much more "go for the throat", but go back and read the posts... You'll see that Placeholder jumped all over my ass for something someone else wrote.

http://www.electrical.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=12903#12903

http://www.electrical.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=64222#64222

There is a transcript of what has been said. Placeholder concocted elitist arguments, and went on to mock me (putting a lot of words in my mouth I never said).

I suggest you read it and figure out how it came to this state where people click on a Zappa link, and haven’t talked about Zappa very much at all. Then I have to spend time defending myself, and Frankie.

The best thing is this Jeremy jerk who keeps telling me to shut up and stop posting about Zappa because no one cares about art rock here. Yes, math rock was invented in 1991. Don't get your wallet chain all twisted up about it.

He keeps coming back though. Never to discuss Zappa.

If you read my posts before that, I'm just very positive about Zappa, and I’m trying to explain that I do think a lot (not all) of people have not heard his good stuff, for a variety of reasons. I focus on the artistic material, which I would really love to resume doing...

Nonetheless, I defend myself, and then try to progress the debate to talk about Zappa's material. So far, myself and capnreverb have actually, specifically addressed the material.

Yes, I think a few people actually checked out Zappa beyond the stuff they had to endure when they were scoring weed from their hippy friend. I bet Placeholder's even rockin' out to "My Guitar Wants To Kill Your Mamma" and can't believe the incredible use of the studio as an instrument, back in 1970 (the MOI used the studio as an instrument from their first record in '66).

In time, people will forget my fervent defense of FZ. In time, the precious little local rock stars will be unknown. For now, all is secret... FZ will be remembered, whether you think the 2% shift in the vote is due to me or not.

Did I do that?

BTW, go to google, click the "images" link, and type in "urkel". Look at the first image that comes up. I couldn't post it. I'd probably get kicked off the board... LMAO!

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:

bumble wrote:

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:I think, if you go back and read the thread, I wasn't antagonistic until I was provoked.

It doesn't matter. You are responsible for your own behavior. That goes for everyone, of course, not just you.

Are your arguments here effective or ineffective?

Have a good weekend.

There is a transcript of what has been said. Placeholder concocted elitist arguments, and went on to mock me (putting a lot of words in my mouth I never said).

I suggest you read it and figure out how it came to this state where people click on a Zappa link, and haven’t talked about Zappa very much at all. Then I have to spend time defending myself, and Frankie.

The best thing is this Jeremy jerk who keeps telling me to shut up and stop posting about Zappa because no one cares about art rock here. Yes, math rock was invented in 1991. Don't get your wallet chain all twisted up about it.

He keeps coming back though. Never to discuss Zappa.

Yes, there is a transcript of everything that has been written and if you had applied the same analytic approach that you supposedly apply to Frank Zappa's music and really read what people are writing you would have noticed that the only person substituting emotion for opinion is you.

I find it hilarious that someone so quick to insult others for making broad generalizations (or in many cases just their own personal opinions) of Zappa's music, actually makes broad generalizations about other people's taste or fashion preferences (like it fucking matters in the first place). I never told you to shut up because no one here likes art rock, and I could give a shit less about that or math rock, I like to listen to music whether it be the Kinks, Tar, or Kevin Drumm. Have I listened to Frank Zappa? Yes. Do I like Frank Zappa? No. That is why I voted crap. I'm sure this is the same simple process that everyone else, besides you, has applied. You are the only one who has sunk to insults, avatar thievery, and using supposed affiliations with certain bands as a shield from the simple truth: some people just don't like Frank Zappa. No more no less. Such is life.

-Jeremy

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:
I'd have to disagree on that. Trout Mask Replica came out quite a few years after MOI started. I like that one a lot. Polyrhythmic blues songs that grate at one's soul. But do you notice the sound-collage stuff, the da-da nonsequitors ("a squid eating dough in a polyethelene bag is fast and bulbous"). That stuff is straight outta "Absolutly Free" and the rest of the MOI catalog. I mean, Zappa did produce it. The guy is a control freak, and had more to do with that than you would probably like to admit. From what I read, he even helped write the music, and it was done all in one night (the writing -- I don't know about the recording -- it's in the liner notes).

Thats not really true. There is a box set that came out with outakes and demos. Those songs were worked on for quite a while ( in a very poor unpleasent environment). They were recorded for the most part in one night. Granted, Beefhearts musical vision is not as vast or ambitious as Zappa's, to me it comes off a bit more sincere.

The thing with weasels/hot rats/waka/ etc. is that while a unique hybred of late 60's fusion, it leaves me with no emotion or deep gut feeling. I don't think zappa really cared for "emotion" in music (broken hearts are for assholes? just kidding). I think feelings and love and pain were not really something Zappa really cared for too much, and rarely used his music as an outlet for such. However, it is something I need from music. When I hear Weasels, i think it sounds kind of cool and unique, but there is not much for me to personally take from it, outside of "wow, thats some pretty complex shit going on and that was weird how that marimba and sytnh came out of that guitar solo."

The always cheezy and stupid lyrics never help. Flo and eddie get really annoying really quick.

But, it's devoid of emotion, at, least to me.

I think John Cage is similer in a way in that they tried to remove or were not interested in emotion and feelings in music.

There always seems to be a sense of sarcasm, meaness, and bullshitting going on. A lot of times he seems to be writting this complex shit just to show off, not really to say anything heartfelt. Granted, he had more musical ability and talent than about anybody in rock, but he squandered it on complex tunes with obvious/toilet humour as window dressing.

Would love to hear what it could have been minus the "image".

The only time i think I really "feel" zappa is in his guitar solos.

I think he also suffers form the wagnerian idea of cramming as much shit as possible into a musical space. Sometimes not saying anything is more powerfull than saying a lot.

I think he is one of the most important musical figures of the 20th century, and so is Cage, but i just, for the most part, don't enjoy their records.


do like the idea of
"and knock the little jockeys off the rich peoples lawns."

"and knock the little jockeys off the rich peoples lawns."

I just found a white label promo 45 of Uncle Remus. I love that song.

The only time i think I really "feel" zappa is in his guitar solos.

Black Napkins, the Filmore version of Dog Breath, Zoot Allures, the Roxy vesion of Son Of Orange County. Oh yeah.
The melody of "Oh, no" from "Weasles..."

Not much after 1976.

i think it was linus:

Somebody in another thread linked to an article you wrote in which you were able to assign a numerical value to every band based on an equation. What score does Frank Zappa receive on this scale?

since you asked...

http://www.matadorrecords.com/escandalo ... ivity.html

coherent aesthetic = 8. pretty on top of what he wanted to do, it seems to me. a little scattered on his more ambitious projects.

execution = 9. precise and meticulously done. i'm confident he and his band performed to their specs pretty much all the time.

real power = 2. intensely annoying and/or dull as dishwater. excruciatingly unfunny 'humor.'

imagined power = 10.

tension adjustment = 2 x (rP - iP) = 2 x (2 - 10) = -16. major penalty for taking himself too seriously. his 'humor' didn't really extend to himself.

(c@+e) x (rP+iP+T) is the formula, so:

(8 + 9) x (2 + 10 - 16) = 17 x -4 = -68

this is worse than whitesnake or the red hot chili peppers, but a little better than billy joel

I think feelings and love and pain were not really something Zappa really cared for too much, and rarely used his music as an outlet for such. However, it is something I need from music.

perceptive, and true for me also. which is why i think it is perceptive.

I think John Cage is similer in a way in that they tried to remove or were not interested in emotion and feelings in music.

except that john cage and his cohorts redefined the entire notion of composition (of music for that matter), radically

i can accept a lack of emotion if it is an exchange for _that_

as an exchange for exotic time signatures and toilet humor, not so much. i'm not gonna get into fz beyond that b/c it's just not worth it to me. bless any of you who feel otherwise.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:Kerble, you can't do both LD and Team/Oxford/Policy Debate at Nationals. Maybe you did it 2 years? But if that was true, I'm sure you'd brag about that.

Thanks, doctor. I did 4 years of a mixed bag, but i'm not the one bragging about stuff, isn't that right, Fugazi? I don't see my posting as arrogant or boastful, so don't foist your insecurities about people disagreeing with you on me.

please respond with something long and boring again.


thanks.



Faiz