joelb wrote:
People in my theater laughed at the Joker at a few very inappropriate moments. I guess I didn't see the humor.

Instead of laughing, I found myself nodding in agreement with whatever the joker had to say.

Why didn't Batman run the Joker over on La Salle Avenue?
That scene showed who was the main guy of the movie.

tocharian wrote:

joelb wrote:

tocharian wrote:Yeah, this is a significantly less impressive movie if he didn't intentionally go after Dent. A crucial distinction between Dent and Wayne is lost.

I don't get this. His choice to go after Rachel reinforces how different he and Dent are - Wayne can't be Gotham's white knight/hero because he is too caught up satisfying personal demons and desires. He cares less about the redemption of his city than himself. Which I think is a pretty nice antihero move for a mass-market film. Isn't that the point?

As I said earlier, the Wayne/Rachel thing is an Abraham/Isaac test of faith. There's a distinction between someone who is a "hero" and someone who is a true "knight of faith." The hero does not pass the test of faith; he will not sacrifice that which is most dear to him, the certain (Rachel) for the uncertain (redemption)... only the certain for the even more certain. The knight of faith, on the other hand:

Kierkegaard wrote:renounces everything, and perhaps at the same time barricades himself from the sublime joy that was so precious to him that he would buy it at any price.

...

The knight of faith is assigned solely to himself; he feels the pain of being unable to make himself understandable to others, but he has no vain desire to instruct others. The pain is his assurance...

Sounds like Batman to me.

Anyway, this is a lot of embarrassing gasbaggery if he indeed went after Rachel.

I agree this is getting pretty thick for a comic book film. Anyway: your original comment suggested that if Wayne was not intentionally going after Dent, then a "crucial distinction" between Dent and Wayne is lost. Going after Dent would have made Wayne Kierkegaard's knight of faith, which would place Dent in the true hero position. Which I don't buy. Now we can debate whether Dent was seeking the certain or motivated by a quest for redemption. but I'm not going to do that because I already feel like a tool.

joelb wrote:Anyway: your original comment suggested that if Wayne was not intentionally going after Dent, then a "crucial distinction" between Dent and Wayne is lost.

Well, maybe what matters then isn’t whether Wayne had chosen to make the sacrifice but that he was able to accept it. It’s not as clean an allusion to Abraham and Isaac, but it’s still pretty good. I’d be interested to see the movie again to pay closer attention to all the talk about “heroes” and “knights” because there’s a great deal of it.

joelb wrote:Going after Dent would have made Wayne Kierkegaard's knight of faith, which would place Dent in the true hero position. Which I don't buy. Now we can debate whether Dent was seeking the certain or motivated by a quest for redemption.

Ok. I think that Dent understands heroism but he doesn’t understand faith. He is exactly Kierkegaard’s definition of a tragic hero: someone who can make a sacrifice if he is fairly certain that the outcome will further his cause. Dent was able to turn himself over to the police because he knows he’d be keeping Batman in business. Kierkegaard describes the Greek king Agamemnon’s sacrifice of his daughter Iphighenia as an act of heroism and not an act of faith because Agamemnon had been guaranteed something in return: the propitiation of the goddess Artemis.

At one point Dent says something like, “You either die a hero or live long enough to become a villain”. He doesn’t really have faith. Faith is something you hold onto in the shittiest of shit… your girlfriend’s violent death, God telling you to kill your only son. Senseless terror, fear and trembling.

joelb wrote:I agree this is getting pretty thick for a comic book film.

Too late. But I really do think this is a pretty philosophically sophisticated film and that it’s ok to nerd on it a bit. Step inside my toolbox.

Fuck, now I gotta go watch this movie again.

I don't have much to add to the tocharian/joelb exchange, but let the record show that i'm enjoying it greatly.

I loved loved loved this movie. I left the IMAX emotionally drained and exhausted, and not because it was 3 AM.

I said this about Spider-Man 2 and then Iron Man, but this is probably the best comic book superhero movie ever made. It's a good sign for comic book movies that the bar keeps getting raised.

But seriously. I'm blown away that there was no compromise here. I can't believe Warner Bros. just let Nolan go dark, dark, dark. Think about this: Batman is perceived by the non-nerd public as a kids' movie franchise. There are fricking fast food tie-ins to this movie. Action figures. The whole bit. And there are parents and reviewers saying that it should have had an R rating. That's incredible.

I can't believe someone put the Alan Moore Killing Joke Joker on film completely 100% accurately, AND told a heartbreaking and riveting Harvey Dent story the way it should be told. As he was giving his "it's darkest before the dawn" speech, it dawned on me: Holy shit. They're not holding back. They're making Harvey out to be a better man than Bruce Wayne. This is going to make his fall all the more tragic. Holy shit.

I'm so happy this movie exists. I'm going to see it like 5 more times in the theater.

Frank Decent wrote:I noticed the lack of a big hollywood "NOOOOOO"", as well and I found it not confusing, but more believable in a way.

I'm pretty sure Dent let out a few good ones.

Andrew Weatherhead wrote:

Frank Decent wrote:I noticed the lack of a big hollywood "NOOOOOO"", as well and I found it not confusing, but more believable in a way.

I'm pretty sure Dent let out a few good ones.

Yeah, I meant from Batman at getting duped.

i just read that batman's mom & sis are pressing assault charges against him.




now that's dark.

Rick Reuben wrote:

jimmy spako wrote:i just read that batman's mom & sis are pressing assault charges against him.

It's two posts above yours.

oops.

Just got back. Loved it. Two quick things.

I'd been looking forward to being all emotional at seeing Heath Ledger. I even tried to a little bit during his first real scene, but very, very quickly his performance won me over such that I just wanted to see what he would do next. He was really great, one of the indelible movie villains.

When Gordon goes to see Dent in the hospital, there's the moment where Eckhart, actor, has to show how torn up Dent still is by doing the big shatter-the-calm scream we've all seen a million times. I have never seen an actor deliver that cliched bit of business more effectively than Eckhart did. Holy fuck did he put his soul into that moment.

Definitely going to see it again.