wiggins wrote:Seriously, why do soundguys ask people to turn down? surely their mics/pres arent clipping? what's the deal?

I only asked people to turn down (I think three times in four years) when I was unable to get the vocals in the PA overtop of their guitar rig, or if their guitar level was causing monitoring issues for everyone else in the band (the stage was a weird, bi-level, off-center trapezoidal mess).

I never really understood though why you'd want a guitar setup that only sounds good at ear-bleed-inducing levels, especially if you're a band that plays smaller places. That'd be like buying a Ferrari when you live in Manhattan.

wiggins wrote:We can't turn our amps down, mister, so you can deal with it or we'll play on the floor.

One of my worst nights as an engineer was with a band that played on the floor in front of the stage. It was a punk band and all they wanted was a vocal mic, which I didn't have a problem with. The singer didn't really understand feedback or how it was happening though, so that blew. He eventually ended up turned around, back to crowd and facing the drummer, which was kind of cool in some ways.

Worst experience with an engineer - a band I played in got a college show opening for Rainer Maria and our friends' band. We got cut out of a sound check because the campus band playing before us took two hours soundchecking for their half hour set. The engineer acted like he had no control over the situation and let them do whatever. To top it all off, our length of set was cut twice during the set itself. We were supposed to play for 35 minutes; I think we ended up playing for like 18. Also, there was a low-frequency feedback in the monitors and mains for the last two songs because the kick mic had fallen over inside the drum and the engineer never even approached the stage to investigate.

matthewbarnhart wrote:

wiggins wrote:Seriously, why do soundguys ask people to turn down? surely their mics/pres arent clipping? what's the deal?

If the sound guy isn't just being a dick or a control-freak, it's often because the PA has limited power. There just isn't enough headroom in the PA before clipping to get the rest of the instruments in balance w/ the super-loud amp.

I ran sound for a small club for a couple of years. Due to its DIY beginnings, it had an exceptionally under-powered PA (all Peavey!), and the room was all concrete and not of a very good layout for a rock club. Every once in a while, there would be a guy who had a very loud amp that was a) louder than the PA itself and b) managed to seem even louder thanks to the concrete surfaces all around.

In this situation, I always gave the guy a choice: either turn down, or let no one hear the vocals or drums over your guitar. There really was no more power available to make everything else loud enough to hear, much less create a decent mix.

At one of the shows I was lucky enough to mix for Silkworm (outside at Emo's in Austin), Tim's bass (which was played through a borrowed GK head/Kustom cab) was louder than the PA itself. I hated asking him to turn it down, but the house sound guy was already telling me to back off the level to the PA because I was clipping every amp in the rack.

His bass sound suffered a bit (there's no replacing the TB & amp drive combo), but they still sounded great as a whole, because they were a great band.

Fuck that, they were a stupendous band!

mb

I'm with you here. I sometimes ask someone to turn down...if the player doesn't feel it will compromise his sound...when the PA is underpowered or weird (my history is full of this situation), so I can at least present a balanced mix to the audience. And I like loud.

Unfortunately, the soundguy is at the mercies of the system he is trying to pilot. He also at this point becomes the middleman between the club's lack of concern with live sound and the art of the band's performance. Not an ideal situation...

In these cases, I usually end up mixing bass drum and bass up to the point of tapping the system's limiters, and set the rest on that. Usually this works.

Oh, I have also had bad nights. On these occasions, I deserve the scorn of the performers. Don't tell anyone, though...

I've gotta say, I feel bad about this, for everybody who does a good job on live sound -- but I remember the dudes who were awful to deal with WAYYY more than I remember the ones who were awesome. Although, I remember a few of the awesome ones, too.

I'd rather play in a basement any day than in a nice place with a weener at the board.

Skuldt wrote:I've gotta say, I feel bad about this, for everybody who does a good job on live sound -- but I remember the dudes who were awful to deal with WAYYY more than I remember the ones who were awesome. Although, I remember a few of the awesome ones, too.

I'd rather play in a basement any day than in a nice place with a weener at the board.

...that's probably because the ones you don't remember are doing their best to remain 'transparent'. The scale between reasonably knowledgeable sound guys and 'the other kind' is wide, and when one screws it up, they usually can't help but draw lots of attention to that fact.

Basement gigs are my favorite to play, too. Intimacy and a lack of commercialism ROCKS. I'm trying to figure out a way to utilize my crappy little personal PA (Behringer ) in 'basement-type' atmospheres more effectively. The only thing I think I can really do to improve that kind of situation, sound-quality wise, is to pipe-and-drape the place. Lotsa work, that.

gorgmess wrote:that was my point. sometimes have a little of the di on top of the mic is helpful, but usually I'm inclined to give musicians all the rope they need to do with as they please. the good ones make out fine.... House guys tend to be flabbergasted when they just see "Bass mic" on an tech advance sheet with no di line, and this always surprises me.

I have gotten bitched at for suggesting 'mic only'. I think this can work, except for the reams of cover bands and whatnot going for a 'typical', clean sound. In which case those newer Radial active DI's are pretty stellar.

During recording, to get the honest sound out of a bass rig, I often put the mic several feet away from the cabinet. To do this live would probably nearly halve your main's gain before feedback in a small, loud club. Not to mention adding whoomfy low frequency coupling all over the place, and uneven frequency response (dum duum BOOOOM dum dum). DI is an unfortunate but often necessary compromise.

Usually, I mic and DI the bass, use the mic for the sound (or even just the stage volume of the louder rigs...shhhh) and the DI to make the playing more articulate...mostly just for a bit of midrange.