wiggins wrote:The clean guitars go under the noise floor and you can't hardly hear them, and when they're 'stompt-on' theyre way in the red, especially with lower frequencies.

This may have been touched on, but... how's about having them turn up the amps nice and loud, right on the verge of total break-up, then set the pedals up with only enough gain/boost to put the amp over. Have them set the volume settings on the stomp-boxes about even with the "cleanish" sound of the amps with the pedals by-passed. The idea is to try to get the amp doing most of the work (and adding compression), with the pedals just supplying a little bit extra push. Basically, just work with the interplay of the pedal's volume and gain settings, and the amps volume settings. What pedals are being used, anyway?

scott wrote:I think it's potentially bad news, unless you *have* to do it. If you have an extra channel you can track to, I'd rather have a mic with a proper gain structure for the lowest volume and a mic with a proper gain structure for the highest volume, if your guitar sound has such a range that one mic/gain structure won't cut it.

Why do I think it's okay to ride a fader during mixing but not tracking? Because a bad decision during mixing = redo the mix. A bad decision during tracking is a lot more big a deal, in my eyes. It's potentially a mistake that everyone has to live with forever, and whether than means a complete retracking of that perfect take that you ruined (D'OH!) or just doing extra work to "fix it in the mix", I'd rather not even be in that position.

Do you have the extra channel? Then why not use it, and not have to worry about potentially fucking up the tracking process? I realize if you're using two mics on the cab in the first place, then this becomes two extra tracks. Maybe this makes it a less-workable solution for you. I dunno.

I think you are making it out to be more difficult than it is. I mean the drummer and the guitar player have to get it all right too or the take is no good, right?...same goes for the guy riding the fader on the part or parts he needs it be done. The article and movie quote I was referring to were pointing out that the engineers were more working on the musical end of things in those type of sessions and could follow charts and know when a clarinet would need upping or pulling back so as to record it well without distortion in the track. Also an angle to the book 'Behind the Glass' shows how often British engineers print effects and reverbs to tape while their American counterparts wait until later JUST TO BE SAFE. I see the up side in making decisions based on this kind of safety but I also like the idea of growing a pair and making the damn decision and being forced to live with it. I mean, crap! We are talking about recording music, not mixing flammable gases. If someone fucks up, do it again.

Mayfair wrote:I mean the drummer and the guitar player have to get it all right too or the take is no good, right?...same goes for the guy riding the fader on the part or parts he needs it be done.

I think that *especially* in cases where the drummer and guitar player getting it right are subject to doubt, the engineer should be there to get the shit to tape without introducing any more risk... If you wanna take the approach like the oldschoolers, with the charts and such, why not just join the goddamn band? If you wanna be the *engineer*, rather than one of the band members, then don't inject yourself into the recording process where you don't need to. Save that for the mix, when the band is in the room and can say "I see what you're going for, but I don't really want it to sound like that". Y'know, like how British engineers will try and add too much reverb and mix the vocals too hot?

Mayfair wrote:I see the up side in making decisions based on this kind of safety but I also like the idea of growing a pair and making the damn decision and being forced to live with it.

Speaking of growing a pair, I think I will... next time we meet, expect a cockpunch instead of a hug, you S.O.B.!

I say if the dynamics are that, well dynamic, the comp. idea is ruled out, and if you are limited on tracks (thank god that still exists!) the multiple mic idea is ruled out, i say you are best to learn the songs and ride the fader, but communicate that with the people you are recording with, maybe you can get the guitars into a usable dynamic range...take some time and record the clean/dist. transition and see how it comes back from tape, sometime you can be surprised at the forgiving quality of tape, but try what options you have and see what works best in your situation. i also do not recommend buying another cheap comp, save your cash and buy something that you will use and have the better part if not all your life. if you need a comp, get the RNC, it is not good for bass, kick, etc. in my use. be persistent and good natured.

There is nothing risky about riding the gain at all.

As pointed out by Mayfair it was the way things were done...in fact many still record this way...especially for vocals (and screamers could really benefit from it).

There is no risk in that we are not talking about getting the signal with 1 db of maximum....just jacking the gain by x dBs on the quiet guitar parts and lowering it when the stomp is in. If you trust the AE to record you in the first place you should be confident he knows when to raise the gain level by some pre-determined amount that still leaves plenty of headroom.

Now that assumes someone is not self-recording.

But, why not turn the FX "level" of the stomp box down so it is closer to the volume of the clean tones (when in bypass)?

Most pedals have this feature no?

Regards,
spoon

i don't see what the big deal is..

if the levels between the channels are that drastic, they are either A) built into the song or B) noticeable when the band plays live/practices, which means they should probably fix it there first. is this problem really that common? or is it more of a case of "i must get max s/n capability at all times on all tracks", which is probably overthinking for these types of low-key recording scenarios..

scott wrote:

Mayfair wrote:I mean the drummer and the guitar player have to get it all right too or the take is no good, right?...same goes for the guy riding the fader on the part or parts he needs it be done.

I think that *especially* in cases where the drummer and guitar player getting it right are subject to doubt, the engineer should be there to get the shit to tape without introducing any more risk... If you wanna take the approach like the oldschoolers, with the charts and such, why not just join the goddamn band? If you wanna be the *engineer*, rather than one of the band members, then don't inject yourself into the recording process where you don't need to. Save that for the mix, when the band is in the room and can say "I see what you're going for, but I don't really want it to sound like that". Y'know, like how British engineers will try and add too much reverb and mix the vocals too hot?

Mayfair wrote:I see the up side in making decisions based on this kind of safety but I also like the idea of growing a pair and making the damn decision and being forced to live with it.

Speaking of growing a pair, I think I will... next time we meet, expect a cockpunch instead of a hug, you S.O.B.!

Ahhh. I was touched by your hug. Please no cock-punches.

All I am saying is it really is not risky or not any riskier than most things you do while recording. Juicing or ducking a mic input is very easy (with decent gear) and can solve problems so I often forget any sort of self-imposed rules and do what is necessary. If I am recording someone I do not keep secrets from them. If I need to do such a thing as that I am sure I would do it not only with the bands consent but I would need their help to know when to do it. I also don't see it as engineer vs band, the two seperate. I enjoy being part of the recording process, not merely a cog in the mechanics of the capturing of signal. When I record bands I like to become a member of the band while I am recording them (if they will have me). More fun playing on the same team when making something like a record. I guess I am lucky it is not what I do every day so maybe that makes it easier to involve myself in their process to that extent.

Also, before you dis British engineers for their abundance of reverb remember this.... Daniel Lenois is American.

154 wrote:i don't see what the big deal is..

if the levels between the channels are that drastic, they are either A) built into the song or B) noticeable when the band plays live/practices, which means they should probably fix it there first. is this problem really that common? or is it more of a case of "i must get max s/n capability at all times on all tracks", which is probably overthinking for these types of low-key recording scenarios..

I am assuming the loud/quiet thing we are talking about are things built into the song, not a problem with use of your gear. I am not suggesting using the gain of a mic to counter act that. I just mean if your gain is set to capture the loud part well, often the quieter part (if it is a huge difference) may be too low a signal for a good recording. Riding the fader just helps sometimes to make sure you have good amount of signal for all parts. The range a guy with an electric guitar through a 100 watt tube amp with stomp boxes and all has a very very large arc of dynamic possibilities...probably wider than the limitations of your recording medium. Thus...limiters, compressors, gates, exist. Your hand on a fader can act like these items. Really, it is not as big a deal as it is being made out to be here.

The range a guy with an electric guitar through a 100 watt tube amp with stomp boxes and all has a very very large arc of dynamic possibilities...probably wider than the limitations of your recording medium.

this is the part i'm not quite seeing. unless we're talking about cassette recorders, most decent recording systems should have enough s/n headroom to make the quiter sounds perfectly usable on most stompbox guitarists... ok, maybe not the shock 'n awe experimental people but that's probably not relevant here.

Hey! Fix it in the mix! Just kidding, people.