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SecondEdition wrote:For those of us who aren't experts about baseball, how exactly would pine tar help you cheat? I know about corked bats, but not about pine tar.

From mlb.com

"Anytime you can get a better grip on the ball," pointed out Cardinals pitching coach Dave Duncan, "you increase velocity and the spin on the ball. It would have more bite if it's a sinker and better spin on a slider."

Linus Van Pelt wrote:maybe he put dirt on his hand on purpose in order to get some kind of psychological advantage.

Totally possible.

It was blatant, that's for sure.

Really looked like pine tar, though.

petercobber wrote:I understand that if everyone does it, even though its illegal (i.e. sodomy laws), it means its less likely you get tossed.

I am baffled as to how the word "salad" escaped mention in a sentence that includes the words "sodomy" and "tossed".

Totally abso-fucking-lutely looked like pine tar. Lets assume, arguendo, that is what it was because there are like 5 pictures from the other games in the ALCS and DLS with him wearing the same "dirt" (liar liar). Why is LaRussa not making a fuss? Because his boys do it too? Because everybody does it?

seems pretty obvious to me that he cheated.

petercobber wrote:Totally abso-fucking-lutely looked like pine tar. Lets assume, arguendo, that is what it was because there are like 5 pictures from the other games in the ALCS and DLS with him wearing the same "dirt" (liar liar). Why is LaRussa not making a fuss? Because his boys do it too? Because everybody does it?

He doesn't want to look like a whiner. If they hadn't gotten Game 1, he might have done things differently, but as it is, he knows he doesn't have anything to gain by bitching.

You can bet the Cardinals are applying certain pressures behind the scenes.

You just answered your question, petercobber.

If the guys on Baseball Tonight are right, then 50-60 percent of pitchers are using pine tar. So LaRussa wouldn't want to invite the same kinds of questions when Carpenter or Suppan take the mound. I'm not saying that these two use pine tar, but just that there is a 50-50 chance they do.

MLB has always been on both sides of the fence when it comes to pitchers and substances. Rule 8.02 says (abbreviated):

"The pitcher shall not . . .
(b) Have on his person, or in his possession, any foreign substance. For such infraction of this section (b) the penalty shall be immediate ejection from the game. In addition, the pitcher shall be suspended automatically for 10 games."

The rules seem pretty clear, yet look at pitchers like Bobby Jenks with that big patch of whatever on the back of his hat. Or John Wetteland on the 1996 Yankees. Those hats could pass for science experiments. Of course, one could say that substance was just dirt.

I can't recall who said it yesterday, maybe Leyland, but that dirt can't be considered a foreign substance, since that is what the playing field is.

Anyway, what was I saying. . . Oh yeah, LaRussa didn't want to bring undue attention to his pitchers. That and Leyland psyched him out.

tmidgett wrote:

petercobber wrote:Totally abso-fucking-lutely looked like pine tar. Lets assume, arguendo, that is what it was because there are like 5 pictures from the other games in the ALCS and DLS with him wearing the same "dirt" (liar liar). Why is LaRussa not making a fuss? Because his boys do it too? Because everybody does it?

He doesn't want to look like a whiner. If they hadn't gotten Game 1, he might have done things differently, but as it is, he knows he doesn't have anything to gain by bitching.

You can bet the Cardinals are applying certain pressures behind the scenes.

I don't agree with the "whiner" theory. What he had to gain was getting Rogers bounced from the game before 8 innings of two-hit baseball.

I do agree that the lack of reaction from St. Louis both during and after the game is the most bizarre facet. I recall a dugout shot where there's a breathless meeting between TLR and some functionary. I think TLR et al. only found out about it from the Fox broadcast; I don't know what the ramifications of that are, however.

I also recall Pudge was throwing at least a couple of balls away himself, without giving them to the ump first.

chopjob wrote:I don't agree with the "whiner" theory. What he had to gain was getting Rogers bounced from the game before 8 innings of two-hit baseball.

No one was going to kick Rogers out of the game in the first inning.

As I said before, LaRussa has had (and probably now has) guys who benefit from using stuff on their hands when they pitch.

Any pointed accusations he makes come back at Cardinals pitchers in subsequent games.

When Rogers removed the visible evidence, there wasn't much they could reasonably do about it.

In weather like that, a lot of guys are going to use things to hold onto the ball. That's just the way it is.

Paging 6-4-3.

Just look at the espn.com front page photo. He had the exact same shitstain in the exact same place for game 3 against the Yanks. Dirt. Give me a fucking break. The get-in-their-head theory is the most ignorant shit I've heard this year.