dave-sidca wrote: (by patriotism I mean beyond drinking whisky and calling the English cunts)

It's an interesting phenomonon the permissable anti-English racism of the other states in the Union. There are areas of Belfast and Glasgow an Englishman just wouldn't be able to go without fearing for their safety. Yet we English (generally and certainly media-wise) love the Irish and the Scots (come Paddy's Day practically everyone all of a sudden has an Irish Grandad or something).
We don't care much for the Welsh though - wonder why that is.

Of course if the Scots did have independence they'd probably be okay because then they would get their oil and they could join the EU and continue to get fuck loads of money out of the English anyway.

PR electoral system as well - I'd move there.


Here's another idea. Why don't the yanks split the red and blue states. Get rid of all the 'people' in the red states and then give it all back to the natives?

Yay!

Justice(with voice of Martin Sheen)

Earwicker wrote:

dave-sidca wrote: (by patriotism I mean beyond drinking whisky and calling the English cunts)

It's an interesting phenomonon the permissable anti-English racism of the other states in the Union. There are areas of Belfast and Glasgow an Englishman just wouldn't be able to go without fearing for their safety. Yet we English (generally and certainly media-wise) love the Irish and the Scots

"I love my wife; that's why I shot her" - James Brown (sic)

They hate us because we fucked them over a barrel repeatedly, killed them, raped them, impregnated them, moved them around, killed them more, raped them more, set fire to them, killed killed killed killed them and generally acted like cunts, all the time, ever. The English are fuckers and you know it. And they know it more than you. And the Welsh fucking hate us too. And so they should.

Chapter Two wrote:They hate us because we fucked them over a barrel repeatedly, killed them, raped them, impregnated them, moved them around, killed them more, raped them more, set fire to them, killed killed killed killed them and generally acted like cunts, all the time, ever. The English are fuckers and you know it. And they know it more than you. And the Welsh fucking hate us too. And so they should.

Hang on a second. Who is the 'we' you're referring to? My ancestors were starving in some Irish bog the last time the English had a sustained policy of oppression against the Scots.

You are being an apologist for racists with all of that. It's like Spike Lee saying black people can't be racist. Cock.
Is it for example alright for a group of asian kids to jump on a white kids head because his great great grandad might have served in the Raj? Of course it isn't. No more than it is for some white dick to stick an axe in a black dudes head.

You're also forgetting re Scotland that during the entire period of our barrel fucking them there were plenty of Scots willing to aid us in our fucking. Glen Coe for example (if my memory serves me) was undertaken by Scottish soldiers in English Uniforms - not 'what ho chaps' stiff upper lipped southerners as the SNP would no doubt have us all believe.

And how does your above rant tally with your earlier we're all just humans let's forget about our historical borders rant?

Racism = Bad

Earwicker wrote:

Chapter Two wrote:They hate us because we fucked them over a barrel repeatedly, killed them, raped them, impregnated them, moved them around, killed them more, raped them more, set fire to them, killed killed killed killed them and generally acted like cunts, all the time, ever. The English are fuckers and you know it. And they know it more than you. And the Welsh fucking hate us too. And so they should.

Hang on a second. Who is the 'we' you're referring to? My ancestors were starving in some Irish bog the last time the English had a sustained policy of oppression against the Scots.

I'm three quarters Irish to one part Romany. My ancestors had the shitty end of the English stick too. When I first wrote the above post, I put all the 'we's' in inverted commas, but I took them off because no matter how much I might like to think otherwise, if I go to Ireland, Wales or Scotland, I'm an Englishman. Your Irish ancestors and mine decided that 'if you can't beat them, join them'; the equivalent of a man in Boro who supports Manchester United. I didn't mention the fact of the Irish ancestry because, as you say above, on some days, every one has an Irish granddad. I guess yours just called.

You are being an apologist for racists with all of that. It's like Spike Lee saying black people can't be racist. Cock.
Is it for example alright for a group of asian kids to jump on a white kids head because his great great grandad might have served in the Raj? Of course it isn't. No more than it is for some white dick to stick an axe in a black dudes head.

Having consciousness of the history of violence and injustice perpetrated by the people of a nation upon your own nation, and knowing that this violence and injustice has created the shape of your own nation and hasn't been redressed, I think justifies a certain degree of hostility and mistrust of the nature and character of the people from that nation. I know a person from Nanjing who has a very hard time being able to consider Japanese people as even human. I don't think this is unreasonable considering what her family were put through, even though she herself was not born when those things occurred. What's the time limit on a grudge like this? Do we wait a hundred years, two hundred years, three? I think it's more reasonable to expect that if you inflict violence then it's going to be remembered for a long, long time.

No I don't think it's okay for an asian person to jump on a white person's head. Similarly, I don't think it's okay for a white person to stick a bayonet in an asian person for not doing what he's told.

You're also forgetting re Scotland that during the entire period of our barrel fucking them there were plenty of Scots willing to aid us in our fucking. Glen Coe for example (if my memory serves me) was undertaken by Scottish soldiers in English Uniforms - not 'what ho chaps' stiff upper lipped southerners as the SNP would no doubt have us all believe.

I'm not forgetting this at all. There were many French people who collaborated in the Second World War; would you consider a Frenchman's mistrust of the German character as misplaced? Someone is always going to smell the wind and turn his coat. That a nation contained traitors doesn't make the injustices inflicted upon it alright, or the resentment regarding those injustices any less justifiable.

And how does your above rant tally with your earlier we're all just humans let's forget about our historical borders rant?

We are ruled by a state that is the direct descendent of the state that perpetrated the violence and injustice upon Scotland, Wales and Ireland over all those centuries in order to be dominant. I would like to see an end to all nations. That doesn't necessitate an end to all history. History contains every reason we'll ever need for burning our flags. Remembering is important, and remembering isn't something that people have to try hard to do when the memories are of violence and injustice. When you learn from your mistakes it's called a lesson. When you don't learn from your mistakes it's called a mistake. We need the memory of history. We don't need nations.

Racism = Bad

Victory by conquest = sometimes forgiven; never forgotten.

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King!

The national anthem of the United Kingdom of Great Britain.

Chapter Two wrote:I'm three quarters Irish to one part Romany. My ancestors had the shitty end of the English stick too. When I first wrote the above post, I put all the 'we's' in inverted commas, but I took them off because no matter how much I might like to think otherwise, if I go to Ireland, Wales or Scotland, I'm an Englishman. Your Irish ancestors and mine decided that 'if you can't beat them, join them'; the equivalent of a man in Boro who supports Manchester United. I didn't mention the fact of the Irish ancestry because, as you say above, on some days, every one has an Irish granddad. I guess yours just called.

I had no intention of starting an 'I'm more parts Irish than your parts Irish' cock showing match. I was using the mention of ancestry purely to highlight how silly holding a grudge against the entire people of a nation who weren't even born when a said injustice was perpetrated is. Especially when those injustices are no longer there. Ireland under internment I can see them being pissed off, Palestinians being murdered, sure bring up the last sixty years but Scotland today does quite well out of its being part of the United Kingdom. Not least in its representation in Westminster.

Having consciousness of the history of violence and injustice perpetrated by the people of a nation upon your own nation, and knowing that this violence and injustice has created the shape of your own nation and hasn't been redressed, I think justifies a certain degree of hostility and mistrust of the nature and character of the people from that nation.

No it doesn't. It might be used as an excuse but, as I've said if there is no longer any tangible injustice (beyond that done to us all anyhow) being committed
Racism pretty much always comes from ignorance. You ask the majority of the estate dwelling racists anything about their history and my money is on most drawing a blank.

I think it's more reasonable to expect that if you inflict violence then it's going to be remembered for a long, long time.

Of course it is but this shouldn't be used to justify racism. A person should be taken on their own merits not the judged on the behaviour of Edward Longshanks for fucks sake.

No I don't think it's okay for an asian person to jump on a white person's head. Similarly, I don't think it's okay for a white person to stick a bayonet in an asian person for not doing what he's told.

Of course both are bad - no excuses - that's my argument. You seem to be saying 'both are bad but let's not forget that Ahmed's Great Great Grandad was belittled by some Cockney in Delhi in 1876, cut him some slack.'
No - put him in prison. Then he can have plenty of time to read and find more constructive ways to work out any anger that may be forthcoming.

That a nation contained traitors doesn't make the injustices inflicted upon it alright, or the resentment regarding those injustices any less justifiable.

Racism is never justifiable - explainable, even understandable (given some specific circumstances) but as a general rule never justifiable. That nations contain traitors doesn't lesson injustice but it complicates matters (when those traitors come in whole clans or tribes (nations?) certainly). That one nation may oppress another is a nice black and white way of looking at the world but there is more to it than that and shining a light on that would go some way to lessening the ignorance that causes racism.

When you learn from your mistakes it's called a lesson. When you don't learn from your mistakes it's called a mistake. We need the memory of history. We don't need nations.

And being racist and bigoted as a result of a study of history is learning from it - is it?
Balls!
You seem to be granting one nation the right to be bigoted against the inhabitants of another nation because of historical injustices whilst proclaiming that we shouldn't have nations.

Where does that leave the inhabitants of Berwick Upon Tweed? They was Scots when we were bad to them now they're English. Are you suggesting that the Scots are justifiably allowed to be racist to them because they are English now?

Silly silly silly.

Victory by conquest = sometimes forgiven; never forgotten.

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King!

The national anthem of the United Kingdom of Great Britain.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? I consider myself a republican and I was against the war in Iraq.
Are we all to be held to account for the guy who wrote the lyrics to the national anthem?

I'm talking about why a prejudice can be understandable, not arguing that racism is a good thing. It isn't. I don't think that an old prejudice from historical events is necessarily the same thing as racism. If a white southern American has a prejudice against black people for no other reason than he thinks he's better than them, that's racism and is as ignorant as you say. If a black southern American has a distrust of white people because his ancestors were treated like shit for a few hundred years and he is still subject to ignorant racism now, I'd say that distrust is somewhat justified.

Chapter Two wrote:

Having consciousness of the history of violence and injustice perpetrated by the people of a nation upon your own nation, and knowing that this violence and injustice has created the shape of your own nation and hasn't been redressed, I think justifies a certain degree of hostility

We are ruled by a state that is the direct descendent of the state that perpetrated the violence and injustice upon Scotland, Wales and Ireland over all those centuries in order to be dominant. I would like to see an end to all nations. .

It`s not right to lay the blame for the history of violence on the new generations.
The end of the nations? Forget It! It Will Never Happen(at least not without violence).
We humans are too greedy and selfish.

Earwicker wrote:

Chapter Two wrote: Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King!

The national anthem of the United Kingdom of Great Britain.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? I consider myself a republican and I was against the war in Iraq.
Are we all to be held to account for the guy who wrote the lyrics to the national anthem?

No, but I don't think the Scottish should be expected to stop moaning and be happy with their lot when this is still our national anthem, any more than you should be happy to sing God Save The Queen.

Would any Scottish members of this forum like to comment on the fact of the still held prejudice against the English?

Chapter Two wrote:Would any Scottish members of this forum like to comment on the fact of the still held prejudice against the English?

It still exists. I say no more!

More so in some places, where the general response would be as DaveSidca says, "Cunts!".

Chapter Two wrote:If a black southern American has a distrust of white people because his ancestors were treated like shit for a few hundred years and he is still subject to ignorant racism now, I'd say that distrust is somewhat justified.

As these things are want to it seems to have come down to semantics. I just don't like the use of the word 'justified'. Unlike saying it is 'an excuse' or 'an explaination' or even 'a reason' the use of the word 'justified' suggests to me that you accept their right to be racist.

I can understand where the prejudice comes from, I can understand where prejudice against Muslims and other cultures/races/gingers comes from but I would never say that any of the reasons that lead to my understanding were 'justifications'.

Racists in my experience are either a/ totally ignorant of the most basic things or b/ educated but were bummed by their uncle/brother/pet dalmation and the aggression that develops as a result is channelled into something totally irrational.