Radio_Birdman wrote:

Ace wrote:Herzog's Aguirre is my favorite film, or if it isn't it is certainly up there, but he cannot make a good movie without another person. Be it Kinski (the best), Bruno S., or Deiter Dengler, Herzog isn't self sufficient like, let's say, Fassbinder, who I think is the most talented of the German new Wave directors.

As for Wim Wenders? Maybe if all of his movies were cut in half. He has Bruno Ganz and Nick Cave going for him, but the rest? zzzzzzzzzzz...

Obviously you haven't seen Kings of the Road. It is still better than any Herzog combined.

oh i've seen kings of the road. and no way is it better than Nosferatu. sorry.

Ace wrote: Herzog isn't self sufficient like, let's say, Fassbinder, who I think is the most talented of the German new Wave directors.

Have you actually seen films by more than four directors (Fassbinder, Herzog, Wenders, Schlondorff) of what's been dubbed the New German Cinema (a.k.a. the German New Wave of the Seventies)?

I'm not trying to to trip you up here, Ace, but it just occurred to me that I myself barely have.

Eierdiebe wrote:

Ace wrote: Herzog isn't self sufficient like, let's say, Fassbinder, who I think is the most talented of the German new Wave directors.

Have you actually seen films by more than four directors (Fassbinder, Herzog, Wenders, Schlondorff) of what's been dubbed the New German Cinema (a.k.a. the German New Wave of the Seventies)?

I'm not trying to to trip you up here, Ace, but it just occurred to me that I myself barely have.

Well, yeah.
Schlondorff's wife Marguerite Von Trotta directed a few films which I've seen, but on the whole she was a better actress than director. There's also Syberberg, but he only directed one main film which I've never seen.
Anyways, I think it's safe to say that most of the German New Wavers got the credit they deserve. Everyone name drops Fassbinder, but he really was the most talented as well as the most prolific. This is an instant where the people who deserved it actually did get the most credit (since this barely happens with music I'd imagine this is hard to believe...)

The opening sequence in Nosferatu is incredible. And I love the soundtrack for it as well.

Ace wrote:Herzog's Aguirre is my favorite film, or if it isn't it is certainly up there, but he cannot make a good movie without another person. Be it Kinski (the best), Bruno S., or Deiter Dengler, Herzog isn't self sufficient like, let's say, Fassbinder, who I think is the most talented of the German new Wave directors.

It seems that you are saying Herzog's good movies have good acting performances by good actors. This is the same for Fassbinder. No director is "self sufficient."

Ishmael wrote:

Ace wrote:Herzog's Aguirre is my favorite film, or if it isn't it is certainly up there, but he cannot make a good movie without another person. Be it Kinski (the best), Bruno S., or Deiter Dengler, Herzog isn't self sufficient like, let's say, Fassbinder, who I think is the most talented of the German new Wave directors.

It seems that you are saying Herzog's good movies have good acting performances by good actors. This is the same for Fassbinder. No director is "self sufficient."

I'm saying that Herzog's subjects are just as important to his films as he is. Herzog's documentary 'Little Deiter Needs To Fly' might be his best film, and no one is "acting" in that movie. Herzog's directoral choices are complementary to his subject matter, and his films would be lacking if they weren't.
Could you imagine 'Aguirre' without Klaus Kinski? Probably not.

In contrast, a filmmaker like Fassbinder, or Wenders, could probably use any performer or subject and make a great film (perhaps not AS good as the ones they did choose, but I honestly don't think it would have made that much of a difference).

Radio_Birdman wrote:

Ace wrote:Herzog's Aguirre is my favorite film, or if it isn't it is certainly up there, but he cannot make a good movie without another person. Be it Kinski (the best), Bruno S., or Deiter Dengler, Herzog isn't self sufficient like, let's say, Fassbinder, who I think is the most talented of the German new Wave directors.

As for Wim Wenders? Maybe if all of his movies were cut in half. He has Bruno Ganz and Nick Cave going for him, but the rest? zzzzzzzzzzz...

Obviously you haven't seen Kings of the Road. It is still better than any Herzog combined.

Alice in the Cities is also great and stars the blonde-haired guy from Kings of the Road--I forget his name.

Ace wrote:I'm saying that Herzog's subjects are just as important to his films as he is. Herzog's documentary 'Little Deiter Needs To Fly' might be his best film, and no one is "acting" in that movie. Herzog's directoral choices are complementary to his subject matter, and his films would be lacking if they weren't.
Could you imagine 'Aguirre' without Klaus Kinski? Probably not.

In contrast, a filmmaker like Fassbinder, or Wenders, could probably use any performer or subject and make a great film (perhaps not AS good as the ones they did choose, but I honestly don't think it would have made that much of a difference).

Not all Herzog movies have spectacular subject matter. "Woyzek," for one. Does that one not count because Kinski is in it? It's a very good movie.

"Little Deiter" is one of Herzog's worst. Ugly to look at. The whole attempt at re-creating Deiter's imprisonment is just awkward and dumb.

"Dieter."

Speaking of New German cinema, I just, finally got the DVD for French filmmaker Bresson's film Mouchette and among the supplements there's an excellent half-hour documentary by a then-journalist, Theodore Kotulla, who apparently went on to become one of thee New German greats (I'm guessing like Jacques Becker to Herzog's Godard).

I'd never ever heard of the guy (!) -- this Theodore Kotulla.

It's the best documentary on Bresson I've ever seen and it's just a pleasure to watch period because it's handheld so you get a honest, no-bullshit glimpse into Bresson's comparatively rigid and coherent film style. There's also some inevitably interesting minutia. One of the PAs on the set, for instance, is wearing a Ronnie Bird shirt.