sorry, alex, maybe I didn't get you right. If all you're saying is that the guy is raical, then im totally with you.
Im just upset that he even gets interviewed on tv, you have no idea how much bullshit this guy is talking, and nobody even cares.

thanks for clearing up what you've said.
eliya

eliya wrote:Again, you're taking one person and making him a whole country. This guy is an old religious wacko, no one even listens to him. Fuck, I don't remember it even being published on the Israeli media.

I'm going to return to your earlier comments, eliya, but I want to point out that the article was in the Jerusalem Post and in Haaretz. I think you are trying to get people to minimize the severity of Eliyahu's comments by trying to get us to believe that he's a nonentity in Israel ( and also, take note of the fact that the worst of the comments were by his son, who is not quite so old ), when he is not. Nobody is saying he is 'the whole country'. There's no such thing, first of all, but second of all, telling me that his thinking is not shared by every Israeli does nothing to make his remarks less contemptible. Please stop building strawmen around Eliyahu, and trying to distort criticism of him into criticism of all Israel.

Do rabbis rise to the level of Chief Rabbi if no one listens to them, if their interpretations of Talmudic law do not resonate with modern Jews? What is his letter doing in the pamphlet passed out in synagogues across the country? The JP and Haaretz cover his remarks, and I don't see him or his son described as fringe nobodies in the articles. Let's keep him in proper perspective. He does not speak for every Israeli, but he speaks for far, far more than just a few.

Maybe he is an old religious wacko, but he's an old religious wacko *with standing*. Our President is an old religious wacko. The US is full of religious wackos who make policy. It would be a great world if all religious wackos were muttering to themselves on websites with 200 readers, but they're not- they're crawling through the halls of power themselves and bending the ears of powerful men.

If the late old religious wacko Ayatollah Khomeini made a remark that you perceived as a threat to Israel, would you be telling fellow Israelis, "Ignore the man. He's just some wacko."? I highly doubt it.

I almost never hear Jews disconnecting mainstream Muslims from the words of extremists like bin Laden as eagerly as Jews try and disconnect themselves from the words of their own extremists.

You can find similar disregard for the value of Palestinian life in remarks made by former Israeli prime minsters and military leaders. Begin called Palestinians 'two-legged animals'. I don't need to list the comments by Sharon and Golda Meir and Ben-Gurion. Non-jews are seen as inferiors in the eyes of mainstream Zionists.

eliya wrote:Now what's bothering me the most, is that you always quote idiots. Like this Shmuel Eliyahu, you quote religious people, which shouldn't be considered, because they don't think right. by that I mean that they say things like "palestinians are not equal to jews, because they're not jews" or some other Rabid people from the edgy right. Don't you guys understand that most of our country don't think that way?

Are you telling me with a straight face that most Zionists regard non-Zionists as their equals? That's preposterous. Israel is a Zionist state, Zionism is an exclusionary, racist ideology, and Israel's history of ethnic cleansing, dispossession, and persecution proves that the state is devoted to carrying out the principles that it was founded on.

Maybe your personal group of friends and family do see Palestinians as equals, but their views are not the views of the Israeli government. Your views do not shape Israeli policy. Whoever the tolerant Israelis are ( and I do not dispute that they exist ), they hold as much sway over their government as American pacifists and socialists do. None.

I read the title of this thread as, "If A Prominent Muslim Said These Words About Jaws..."

Heh heh.

eliya wrote:I see you quoting about houses in Gaza being demolished for no reason, I don't see you talking about houses in Sderot being demolished by kasam missiles.

Are you writing letters to the US corporate media complaining about the opposite situation? You should know that the ADL mobilizes against any US media that presents an honest picture of the casualties. The numbers don't lie. I watch the news, and I watch the spin, and then I compare them. In the current attacks, two Israelis have died, and over 50 Palestinians have died. The Palestinian dead are consistently described as Hamas militants or Hamas sympathizers in the US media. Whatever excuse the IDF gives for the women and children they kill is accepted without question by the US media.

eliya wrote:

muzorewi's daughter wrote:

eliya wrote:None of Israel's wars had a religious basis.

this is a pretty shocking claim, innit?

Prove me that Im wrong.

Are you serious? Israel siezed land in 1967, evicted and murdered non-Jews, and gave the stolen land to Jews. That's aggression fueled by religion. It's no different than the US Manifest Destiny, an entirely Christian extermination of heathen non-believers.

clocker bob wrote:

eliya wrote:

muzorewi's daughter wrote:

eliya wrote:None of Israel's wars had a religious basis.

this is a pretty shocking claim, innit?

Prove me that Im wrong.

Are you serious? Israel siezed land in 1967, evicted and murdered non-Jews, and gave the stolen land to Jews. That's aggression fueled by religion. It's no different than the US Manifest Destiny, an entirely Christian extermination of heathen non-believers.

So when are you handing back the US to the natives...?

Bob, the israeli government, every Israeli government, gets voted into office by a by and large non-religious Israeli middle-class (the fundamentalist fringe parties occasionally get to partake in coalitions because of the specifics of the Israeli political system).

The question then, is how exactly this middle-class came to vote for a racist pig like Sharon and, with respect to that, you cannot fail to take into account the:

1. failure of the 2000 Camp David summit (which offered realistic opportunities for a an independent Palestinian state including East-Jerusalem and the Temple Mount)

2. the subsequent second Intifadah and

3. the complete and utter inability of the Palestinian "government" to establish control over its territories.

I am virulently opposed to the current israeli policies with regard to the occupation and whatnot, but Eliya's point, that there really are two sides to this whole affair, is fundamentally sound.

The religious right is (while surely a vocal minority), if only in terms of pure demographics, only slightly relevant to the whole affair.

So when are you handing back the US to the natives...?

when you give new zealand back to the maori

clocker bob wrote:

eliya wrote:Again, you're taking one person and making him a whole country. This guy is an old religious wacko, no one even listens to him. Fuck, I don't remember it even being published on the Israeli media.

I'm going to return to your earlier comments, eliya, but I want to point out that the article was in the Jerusalem Post and in Haaretz.

Well, Im sorry, Im not that much involved with the Israeli media, but I do live here and know what's happening. what's bothering me is that you referred, or better said, brought to the knowledge of this forum only what eliyahu said, or only the news about houses being demolished on the Palestinian side. I haven't seen you talking about houses being demolished on the israeli side(I might be wrong though, since Im not reading every post here).

I think you are trying to get people to minimize the severity of Eliyahu's comments by trying to get us to believe that he's a nonentity in Israel ( and also, take note of the fact that the worst of the comments were by his son, who is not quite so old ), when he is not. Nobody is saying he is 'the whole country'. There's no such thing, first of all, but second of all, telling me that his thinking is not shared by every Israeli does nothing to make his remarks less contemptible. Please stop building strawmen around Eliyahu, and trying to distort criticism of him into criticism of all Israel.

Mordechai Eliyahu is a strawmen, he was Israel's chief rabbi.
being a chief rabbi is just a symbol to most israelis, nothing more than that. I will quote some of the stuff written about him on wikipedia(not exact quotes):
-during the early 50's eliyahu was a part of an underground organization which tried to force the jewish religion upon israel, and making the country a religious country. he spent 10 months in jail for that.
-He called against signing on "organs donation" since he doesn't believe medical doctors. Please keep in mind that other rabbies did say that it's ok to sign on such a thing.
-He was/is against tissues examination since it can create a problem of out-of-marriage kids.
-He said that sefaradim shouldn't eat a "rich matza" like the ashkenazim do. just because the ashkenazim do so. it might seem as nothing for you, but it means quite alot in Israel.
-He was against eating sesame. because of some religious nonsense(he is the only on who thinks that this mambo jumbo is true, other rabbies don't think so).
-He also "propheted" that Israel wouldn't leave the settlements. His son said "I don't know how my dad knows that it's not going to happen, but if he does say so, I believe he knows what he's saying". many of the religious zionists were against what he said.

Do rabbis rise to the level of Chief Rabbi if no one listens to them, if their interpretations of Talmudic law do not resonate with modern Jews? What is his letter doing in the pamphlet passed out in synagogues across the country? The JP and Haaretz cover his remarks, and I don't see him or his son described as fringe nobodies in the articles. Let's keep him in proper perspective. He does not speak for every Israeli, but he speaks for far, far more than just a few.

Im not an expert in religious matters, so I can't tell how a rabbi is rising to the level of a chief rabbi.
Haaretz likes to make people like Mordechai Eliyahu to look like idiots, because these people really are, while we in Israel don't listen to what he's saying, people from outside are taking it seriously.

Maybe he is an old religious wacko, but he's an old religious wacko *with standing*. Our President is an old religious wacko. The US is full of religious wackos who make policy. It would be a great world if all religious wackos were muttering to themselves on websites with 200 readers, but they're not- they're crawling through the halls of power themselves and bending the ears of powerful men.

The difference between your wackos and "ours", is that religious fanatics believe that god is going to make all the work for them, they believe that all they should do is study torah and pray, the rest will happen from itself. They also don't work and live on israel's pensions and budgets. He doesn't have more than a few thousand followers, and that's on a good day. and all these followers aren't going to do anything.

If the late old religious wacko Ayatollah Khomeini made a remark that you perceived as a threat to Israel, would you be telling fellow Israelis, "Ignore the man. He's just some wacko."? I highly doubt it.

Well, If someone who's Irani was hanging on the same "social circles" as I, saying that Khomeini is talking bullshit and nothing of all he's saying is going to happen, I'd believe him. Since we both have, more or less, same political opinions and same interests.

I almost never hear Jews disconnecting mainstream Muslims from the words of extremists like bin Laden as eagerly as Jews try and disconnect themselves from the words of their own extremists.

I hope that you mean fanatic religious jews, 'cause the rest of us are making the separation between the two.

You can find similar disregard for the value of Palestinian life in remarks made by former Israeli prime minsters and military leaders. Begin called Palestinians 'two-legged animals'. I don't need to list the comments by Sharon and Golda Meir and Ben-Gurion. Non-jews are seen as inferiors in the eyes of mainstream Zionists.

Times are changing, and so are people.
no offense, but im sure that you're ancestors talked about afro american people as nigger slaves, who knows if they raped their mistresses as well. if your ancestors didn't, Im sure that the ancestors of some other folks here did. Didn't the Nazi's call the jewish pigs? sub humans? didn't they mass murdered them? they did. So, are all germans like that today? or they've changed. does the German chancellor think that Im a filthy pig? no, times have changed.
btw, Ariel Sharon was the one who encouraged people to move to the settlements and build permanent houses there, 30 years later, he was the one who told them to get out of there. That's a great example of a person who had changed over the years.

clocker bob wrote:

eliya wrote:Now what's bothering me the most, is that you always quote idiots. Like this Shmuel Eliyahu, you quote religious people, which shouldn't be considered, because they don't think right. by that I mean that they say things like "palestinians are not equal to jews, because they're not jews" or some other Rabid people from the edgy right. Don't you guys understand that most of our country don't think that way?

Are you telling me with a straight face that most Zionists regard non-Zionists as their equals? That's preposterous. Israel is a Zionist state, Zionism is an exclusionary, racist ideology, and Israel's history of ethnic cleansing, dispossession, and persecution proves that the state is devoted to carrying out the principles that it was founded on.

Have you ever read Theodor Hertzel's articles? Have you ever read Altneuland? He's the guy who invented Zionism, he describes Israel as a country of 3 religions, jewish, muslim and christian. His original idea was that Israel's official language will be German. He's considered as a real Zionist.
What you're calling zionists is actually religious zionists who took everything Hertzel said out of proportion. I know you like using the right expressions..

Maybe your personal group of friends and family do see Palestinians as equals, but their views are not the views of the Israeli government. Your views do not shape Israeli policy. Whoever the tolerant Israelis are ( and I do not dispute that they exist ), they hold as much sway over their government as American pacifists and socialists do. None.

Im working in a place which have about 120 people, maybe even more, only two of them are saying things like "arabs should be dead". I tell them that they're fascists, one of them almost punched me in the face for saying that. the rest of the people in the office don't think like them.
My neighbors don't think that way. Haaretz, which is one of the biggest news papers in Israel is thinking the same way I do. Haaretz readers think the same way. I know anarchists who go to arab villages and protest with the local arabs against Israel.
I can assure you that Olmert doesn't want to kill all arabs. I really dislike olmert, but I know he's not into "kill'em all" way of thinking.

eliya

sunlore wrote: Eliya's point, that there really are two sides to this whole affair, is fundamentally sound.

That really wasn't the crux of my argument with eliya. I think eliya is dishonestly minimizing the level of influence of Eliyahu inside Israel and dishonestly characterizing Zionists as respectful of non-Jews.