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When I am in a social situation and am uncomfortable, I generally leave rather than try to get the group (who are behaving as a group/mob) to change course. I don't like parties generally, and specifically those where people are acting like asses. The ass-acting people are getting something out of it, and even that offends you. You are thinking on a level apart from them, and it isn't their responsibility to make you comfortable.

The critical element is that you have been offended by (I could say "chosen to take offense at") other peoples' behavior not directed at you. You do not therefore have a right to "correct" them so that you are not offended, but to avoid offense, you can leave, and you may eventually resort to finding new friends.

We cannot control other people's behavior, but we can control how we react to it. To attempt to control their behavior (or to expect them to adopt your unspoken norms of civility) is an evil that has caused our society much pain, and created a judgemental atmosphere that infiltrates much of our lives.

If you're just looking to commiserate, then, yeah, they were acting like asses. They should have that right. Out of such stupidity can come insights (you seem to be having some yourself in reaction), and when people are letting their hair down, I'd just as soon have them let it all the way down. I like to see it unfold, but I acknowledge that sometimes it unfolds into an ass-ugly thing.

toomanyhelicopters wrote:oh dear! betty, please pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. sometimes bradley gets a little cranked up and all (yes, on crank, literally) and he's been in an especially troubled mood lately, what with the cubs not making the playoffs and all.

Yes, Betty. toomanyhelicopters is right. toomanyhelicopters is the voice of reason and authority in these parts. Listen to him and you cannot go wrong. Everyone will love and respect you.

Thanks,
Yes, while I was offended, my stand was not as an obnoxious show of my distaste, I simply chose to only play the charades I was comfortable with. This made an impression, I found out later. I didn't even make any comments at the time.
I would also like to say, as I did near the beginning of this c/nc, that not everybody in the room was participating.

Steve Albini: "We cannot control other people's behavior, but we can control how we react to it. To attempt to control their behavior (or to expect them to adopt your unspoken norms of civility) is an evil that has caused our society much pain, and created a judgemental atmosphere that infiltrates much of our lives."

An excellent point. I hadn't thought about it that way. However, I do feel that my "unspoken norms of civility" (ie: not wanting to be treated as an object) are not too much to ask for nor should women (or man) have to ask for them.
Also, should a person always be expected to simply walk away when in a situation where they feel that they are suffering a dis-service. Doesn't this create a "popular opinion" society in which they are pretty much forced to "quit whining" about something that they feel strongly is a problem within that society?
When I was little (about 8, I think) there was a kid who liked to insert sticks into cats asses and swing them around. This made some of the kids uncomfortable and others not. The result was that the majority of the kids thought it was just great and the ones that didn't were alienated. Anybody that said anything against it was accused of pretty much the evil that Steve rails against: "To attempt to control their behavior (or to expect them to adopt your unspoken norms of civility) is an evil that has caused our society much pain, and created a judgemental atmosphere that infiltrates much of our lives."
Obviously I know that the cat story is an extreme, but there must be a balance somewhere. How does one decide where that balance is?


To Bradley R. Weissenberger: Mayhaps you can recommend a writing teacher...

betty wrote:To Bradley R. Weissenberger: Mayhaps you can recommend a writing teacher...

Oh, Betty. I don't care how you write. That wasn't my point at all.

My point is that I don't want to be your "dear friend". If I was your "dear friend", then I fear that you would post judgmental descriptions of my ill-conceived party antics to an internet message board.

"Academics Playing Nasty Charades" You answered yourself perfectly right off the bat.

see bradley, this is no fair. i made it so brutally clear i was kidding with my cubs line... and you go and turn it around and then it's all like, "ooooh, i'm so sarcastic!" or something. or were you? hang on, lemme check my "voice of reason" handbook... yes, right here, page 7... "it's always impossible to tell when bradley is joking, therefore, he is never joking about anything. always take offense at things he says, and react by making fun of him". wow, who'da thunk it? NERD!

If someone is physically hurting a cat, you can fuck him up a little.

Short of cat-hurting, then yes, I think that your presence (or absence) in a group is the strongest stand you should make. If you tell everyone why you are uncomfortable, then leave, you've done all you can. You will probably find a peer group of other leavers which can replace (and possibly make irrelevant) the group you left. I think a society that allows peers to self-regulate this way is better than one that imposes control on everyone.

If you feel like an object, you should strive to change your own thinking, so that others cannot make you feel this way. You should also feel free to say, "staring at my breasts while I'm talking makes you look stupid."

I will admit to being distracted by breasts in my life, although not often. I don't think society is to blame. I am a little ashamed of it, but only because my understanding of etiquette tells me I should be. You can thank society for that. Left to my own devices, I would stare and stare. I cannot defend this behavior, except that I like it.

steve wrote:Left to my own devices, I would stare and stare. I cannot defend this behavior, except that I like it.

i find it easiest to throw out the expression "biological imperative", and if pressed, explain that without guys being physically attracted to the ladies, the human race would wither and die. that's why mother nature makes us like to look at naked ladies. so we don't all die. who wants us to all die? nobody!

betty wrote:Obviously I know that the cat story is an extreme, but there must be a balance somewhere. How does one decide where that balance is?

That is a bit tricky. It depends on how you want to go about your life, ultimately.

The cat story is actually a great example to use, because just about everyone knows of this adolescent rite of passage. In my case, I used to skate with these guys who hung cats (gallows-style) from trees. They thought nothing of it, other than "it was fucked up, man."

What did I do? I stopped hanging out with them.

If I would have said "stop that, etc." I would have been instantly labelled an uncool asshole in their mentality, and once I was ostracized from the group, they would resume cat murder. So I just kicked myself out, and decided to be an uncool asshole.

It takes a very rare kind of person to be able to look at a situation they are involved in OBJECTIVELY, and make some sort of amendment to their behavioral traits. Usually, any criticism or remark is taken as a personal jibe and instantly preys on someone's insecurity.

Armchair behaviorist rant over.

This is becoming a debate of extremes.
I am not saying don't look. I'm saying be respectful/tactful, look at the whole picture. Maybe the etiquette part of it is mostly a good thing. Otherwise, we might revert to dragging each other by our hair into the cave to make babies.
Do we want a race that is made up of people procreating solely because of physical attraction? It's a big part of it, but there are a lot of stupid pretty people out there.
I have been known to respond to men talking to breasts by holding them in my hands and moving them as I hold my end of the conversation. This works very well to get the point across. I just don't like to have to get that point across.
I do not walk around feeling like an object as a rule. I find myself reminded that I, as are other women, am sometimes treated like one (an object, that is). Like when I'm mowing my lawn and the man riding down the street on his bike staring at me goes around the block to make another pass-by and shamelessly stares some more. That is not flattering. He does not want to be my friend. He is being predatory. It's annoying and makes some women uncomfortable. It's also a little bit scary to think that this person knows where I live. Again, an extreme, I know, but a discomforting thought.
Don't worry, Bradley R. Weissenberger, we won't be dear friends.