lets talk ethics of filesharing

21
steve wrote:
but I think most rationalizations about file sharing (and especially prognostications about it being "the way of the future") are patently ridiculous or simplistic, and ignore the applicable history of how society has dealt with very similar technological changes in the past.

best,
-steve


i don't think theres a prescendent that gives us a sense that this is just a "blip", or an insignificant development.

Particularly since i think the opposite of what you are saying is true. look at how fast recorded music became ubiquitous in the first place. then look at how fast tapes becasue ubiquitous, then CDs, and now DVDs... and as we speak the same thing is happening with iPods and broadband internet... these things have all dramatically changed the way most people listen to and aquire music and art.

I mean shit, in a couple of years mac has sold like a million and a half iPods at 300$ plus... imagine whats gonna happen when they come down like DVD players have come down (i bought a cheapo DVD player for a project last week for like 40 bucks)...

People that underestimate this are the same people who were saying 15-20 years ago that CDs would never fly cuz who wants to rebuy thier entire collection?
steve wrote:
In the first quotation above, you imply that intellectual property as a concept isn't applicable to music. In the second, you assert a right to enforce that very concept if others are making a profit off your art. You say the distinction is "obvious." The only thing obvious about it is that in the first case, you would have to pay and in the second, someone would be paying you. You like the kind of intellectual property that pays you, but you don't like the kind you have to pay for.


i still feel like that distinction is obvious...

when i do not for profit theatre composition or design work.... i do the same exact work for which i would charge a corporatte theatre or production company a fairly hefty fee. My rationale has always been that i really like doing the work, and time permiting, i do it for fun, and don't really depend on it for the bulk of my income. So if i do a score for some pissy little mom and pop theatre thats working off of a shoe string budget, and no one involved is seeing a dime, i don't care if i get paid.

if on the other hand, i'm working for commerical producers, or scoring an ad, or a video game or flash for a commerical website, the producers are hoping my efforts will contribute to the profitability of thier product... and by god, i want some.

its a similar/related idea. as if sharers aren't profiting off of my music, i don't see how we can rationalize (or more importantly- as i've said a few times ENFORCE) the idea of IP in those cases.

My last post on the last page kinda summed up my feelings about the worth of recorded music. I think sayiing it has worth because of the effort that went into it is bogus. effort doesn't determine worth, market value and scarcity determine worth. Otherwise i could set whatever arbitrary worth i wanted for any of my efforts- creative or commerical... but it doesn't work that way. And as the new generation of listeners grows up with the ease and convenience of sharing, with the only impediment being a stern warning from the industry about supposed implicit worth of this property. Its going to get harder and harder for the industry to satisfactorily answer the question "why SHOULD I pay for this?"

and also, you quoted the excerpt where i said that music exsisted fine for thousands of years with out IP law, which i suppose could have been taken to imply that iam in favor of the COMPLETE abolition of IP as an idea.

i'm not, i just think that perhaps a fairly massive overhaul may be in order.

as much as you think i am overestimating the impact here, i think that the precedent actually tells us that the opposite is true, that in a generation, most kids will probably look at CDs and DVDs the same way we look at wire recorders, so what i'm "preaching" for lack of a better word is conceptual and egislative proactivity.

The reason the industry is in this mess right now is a lack of foresight, and a lack of proactivity. I think its a huge development in the technological and artistic landscapes, and the dismissive "its just like stamp collecting" passivity is how they ended up so far behind the curve, and why they're misspending spending so much time and money grasping at straws now.
look, i'm not tryin' to be a dick...

lets talk ethics of filesharing

22
i think that one main point that steve is making eloquently and you are missing entirely is that filesharers _are_ paying for music. they're paying internet connection and bandwidth fees, they're paying for computer hardware and cdrs, ipods. people _are_ paying, but they're not paying artists.

i don't think this is necessarily central to his overall argument, which is pretty airtight. i think you are missing the boat.

lets talk ethics of filesharing

23
tw wrote:i think that one main point that steve is making eloquently and you are missing entirely is that filesharers _are_ paying for music. they're paying internet connection and bandwidth fees, they're paying for computer hardware and cdrs, ipods. people _are_ paying, but they're not paying artists.


all of three above are quantifiable, tangible, controlable products or services.

i get that, and sorta feel like maybe you're missing my point which is that it doresn't matter how you or i FEEL about sharing and or an artists right to profit from recorded music, but the landscape is changing in such a way where the viability of continuing to cling to recorded music as a form of commerce is seriously, and demonstrably challenged.

just like the printing press largely killed manual transcription of bibles as an art form/industry. You can sit around and argue about how unfair that was to people who used to make a living as scribes, but it doesn't change the fact that the technology exists, and theres a diminishing incentive for consumers to play along with the old rules.

also, if you look at my last post on the first page i actually specifically said :

"I spend plenty of money on shows and more time working in and promoting the arts (on which i depend wholy for a living, like many of you). Its not that i am unwilling to spend the money, or that i don't have the money to spend, and this isn't some misguided socialist dreamland"

i never claimed that its about not spenidng money, or being cheap... its about restructuring the market to make it enforceable and fair to everyone involved.
Last edited by badhat_Archive on Thu Jun 26, 2003 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
look, i'm not tryin' to be a dick...

lets talk ethics of filesharing

24
I do not fileshare. It is not what I am about. I did not grow up making mix tapes, and I am not all that interested in spending what is left of my 30's trying to get people to appreciate the Rezillos or something.

I was excited by Apple's plan to let me share playlists over the internet. That could have satisfied most people I think. The ability to hear the songs, but not take possession of them. Since that was so easily defeated, I am less inclined to even bother setting anything up in the future.

I used to buy bootlegs and tape shows. When I gave it some thought I realized it was something I did not want any part of. You can't enjoy a show when you are taping it (look at Adam), and a bootleg worth listening to is too rare to bother looking for. One of my tapes got passed around (probably my only really good one) and I suspect it has been booted, This makes me feel terrible, since I know that particular band very much disapproves of that sort of thing. If people want their stuff available (free or not), they will get it to you one way or another.

I give some of my (non-audio) work away. I do some of it under a <a href="http://www.creativecommons.org/learn/licenses/">Creative Commons</a> license, and some I would like to hold a perpetual copyright on. The theme is that I like to be able to decide the fate of my work. The decision should be mine. Just because it is easy to distribute something does not mean the morality has changed much.

It turns out I do not like buying CDs. I still buy vinyl (tho I am having trouble digitizing from it) but CDs have nothing for me. The boxes are clutter. I considered the physical CD to be my license to move songs to my iPod, but now that I have an easy, legal option for downloading I may find my mind changed. My real concern these days is that my limited storage and playback is going to change my relationship to the music I listen to. I carry a couple thousand songs around with me, and I listen a couple of hours everyday. Since my disk space is tight, I have pruned songs and am choosy about what I put on my player. I fear I am putting myself in a position where songs that do not immediately grab me, never have a chance to grow on me. Since I almost always listen to a playlist, or a shuffle, I do not give anyone a chance to develop a mood over the course of a side. I fear the technology is best suited to pop and fad.

lets talk ethics of filesharing

25
badhat wrote:i don't think theres a prescendent that gives us a sense that this is just a "blip", or an insignificant development.

Particularly since i think the opposite of what you are saying is true. look at how fast recorded music became ubiquitous in the first place. then look at how fast tapes becasue ubiquitous, then CDs, and now DVDs... and as we speak the same thing is happening with iPods and broadband internet... these things have all dramatically changed the way most people listen to and aquire music and art.


Notice well that sheet music didn't replace commissions, player pianos didn't replace virtuosi, the phonograph didn't replace concerts, radio didn't replace local music venues, cassettes didn't replace LPs, and file sharing won't replace sales of records. All of these things have spread music out into the unwashed and away from the entrenched music industry, and the industry reacted in fear at their inception.

None of them, including file sharing, is by itself the destroyer of anything. They will all continue to exist as part of a spectrum.

best,
-steve
steve albini
Electrical Audio
sa at electrical dot com
Quicumque quattuor feles possidet insanus est.

lets talk ethics of filesharing

26
I have a friend who gets all of his "necessities" (albs, movies, software, books, even!) off of the internet. Truly amazing, the latest curve of technology. But he's also a lazy fuck. I can't rightly condemn him for this (he is saving a lot of money) but he's also spending a lot of time with his ass firmly planted in his seat, bereft of what's outside his door. File sharing has just made the world safer for lazy people. And as Steve pointed out so gracefully, it shows what value people place on their art.

I see file-sharing as a good way to attain certain "gee whiz" albums, comps, singles, etc etc that one would normally have a hard time getting his or her hands on. But the process of going out and actually *buying* a record is still sacred to me, as I know it is to some of you. A burned copy of the latest Silkworm or Shellac album is just a rude silver disc that is read by the numbers on the underside of it. So I guess it seems nowadays all the work that the bands have put into recording, packaging, art, lyrics, is in vain. Why even go in the studio? Sit at home and program songs from your laptop. Why bother to write lyrics? Have a generic computer voice spit out random phrases for you underneath a generic beat. Shit, why worry about the packaging? Put it on the internet for free! I'd offer all of these as a humble way to shape the new music industry, but sadly, all of the above have been done.
damn skippy

lets talk ethics of filesharing

27
As a fan, I suppose I could use it to find things (like the 1990s band Leo from Berlin, or the first Stackwaddy EP, or the Wrecked Chopped and Screwed version of Big Mo's "City of Syrup," or the unreleased Smashchords demos) that I haven't been able to find elsewhere, except that I'm too busy earning a living.


Don't even worry about it, if you did have the time, you probably wouldn't be able to find those songs. There is tons of pop and dance and whatnot, but anything that was released before the 80's, anything on vinyl, or anything that was released in limited production is next to impossible to find. You'd be better off looking on ebay and buying a used cd or lp, but is the RIAA going to sue you if you do that???

Later,
Jim

lets talk ethics of filesharing

30
steve wrote:In other words, it's a harmless pastime like stamp collecting or trading Pogs -- it is a trivial detail that it involves music, and I believe its impact on the consumption of music in commercial forms is neutral or positive.


If I may be so bold, I'm gonna disagree AND invoke the word "generation," all in this one post. I think the current generation of kids think music isn't something you have to pay for, therefore they won't pay for it, and I think this mindset stems from filesharing and CD burning. I also think it promotes a quantity over quality mentality, in which you can either spend time with a band's catalog, of which only some components may be online and then you move on to the next freebie, rather than pay money to hear more. My concern is that the value of the effort put into making a record is being broken down, because we all know music is free, right? And there are 10 million bands out there. So I'm worried filesharing, as it currently exists, isn't harmless to those who hope to recoup some of the expenses incurred whilst making their recordings. -E

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