I attended Catholic schools through high school. One thing I remember from that period was how the priests and teachers reacted to the pending execution of Ted Bundy: they asked us to pray for him. It made zero sense to me at the time; in fact, it seemed bananas. (“Why aren’t we praying for his victims?!?!”) I understand now that that there was grace and love in those comments: you pray for him because he’s broken, because he needs it.

The priests at my church and teachers at my schools leaned a bit toward the acoustic guitar, Catholic hippie side. (I once described such Catholics to coworkers who grew up on Chicago’s south side, and they looked at me like I had a screw loose.) They opposed abortion, of course, but also opposed war and the death penalty with at least as much zeal, maybe more.

But . . .

rsmurphy wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 7:56 am Crap. All religions are shit.

Plus the whole mass child molestation thing. And behind closed doors, many of them absolutely oppose birth control.

But there are waffles there. The thing about taking pity on the worst of people has stuck with me.

Wood Goblin wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:10 am They opposed abortion, of course, but also opposed war and the death penalty with at least as much zeal, maybe more.

The Catholic Church publicly opposed the Iraq War:

https://www.usccb.org/resources/informa ... q-may-2003

And its longstanding position against Christian Zionism is also relevant to today's events:

My grammar school graduating class was the last class ever as they shut the school down afterward and kept the parish. I think we had something like eleven people total in my class. Still best friends with two of them, though one moved to Indiana and married a MAGAt. He was a big ol hesher. Used to play Kerry King solos but now sends memes trying to guilt you into posting about something. I had to block his wife.

Went to a high school ran by Carmelite monks who were big fans of corporal punishment, particularly stress positions. I guess it tracks what with flagellants and residential schools for indigenous children. What an ugly past. How can one take current dogma of any religion to heart when the literal foundation of religion was built on the humiliation, torture, and erasure of others. What happened? One day an elder just goes oopsy and modernizes the religion? How does that work at all? OK, Latter-day Saint weirdo, thank you for changing course on the whole having black skin is a punishment from God thing, but your religion can still get fucked.

Wood Goblin wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:10 am But there are waffles there. The thing about taking pity on the worst of people has stuck with me.

One doesn't need to be religious to have grace and show pity, though. How I see it is if faith and religion gets you through your day without having to judge, humiliate, dehumanize, and proselytize to people then that's totally cool. It's a shame the ones with sizeable power enjoy having sex with children and starting wars.

Oh, I fully agree. I’m also an atheist.

Same, but able to be drawn towards more arcane schools of thought because that's fun. I'm more amenable to Jesus being a programmer than a carpenter.

I wonder who the one not crap vote was

I'm not going to give them a NC vote, having grown up Catholic and regarding the foundations of the faith to be unbelievable nonsense couched in an earlier faith that, unlike other major world religions, seemed bent of divesting itself from any relationship to the phenomena and functionings of the natural world, and the reverence and awe that should duly go to Nature.

However, in the long line of Christian sects out there, I will give the church kudos for being the only one that: A) Is not in complete denial of science, including things like evolution, climate change, genetics, natural history, etc..., and B) Does not take the interpretation that the bible is anything but allegorical, should never be taken at face value, and probably comprises the reason they kept things in liturgical Latin for so long - understanding all the things that could be taken the wrong way by idiots should they take such a document at face value.

Crap, WF for being the only major sect that aren't a bunch of science-denying literalist nitwits. Minus points for the Opus Dei freaks that are science denying literalist nitwits.

Catholics: at least we're not Pentecostals or Mormons.

If one of my kids started hanging around a church, I'd probably feel better if it were Methodist, or Episcopalian, or United, or even Lutheran over Catholic. I'd definitely take Catholic over lots of the nutsos listed above.

All of this is dependent on the mind of the person preaching.

losthighway wrote: Mon Nov 13, 2023 5:17 pm If one of my kids started hanging around a church, I'd probably feel better if it were Methodist, or Episcopalian, or United, or even Lutheran over Catholic. I'd definitely take Catholic over lots of the nutsos listed above.

All of this is dependent on the mind of the person preaching.

Methodism is probably the closest to Catholicism out of those listed above. I have an admiration for John Wesley. He was a cool guy. Methodists did mostly oppose American slavery. The United Methodist Church split recently over LGBT issues. Now there's something called the Global Methodist Church as well.

The Southern Baptist Convention and the Assemblies of God (white Pentecostal church) were originally formed (at least in part) to maintain white supremacy. In the 1700s lots of those folks would have fought against teaching black slaves to read. Those are your hotbeds of Trump voters. That's where we get the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons and suchlike.