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Janeway wrote:
tocharian wrote:
There's a distinction between someone who is a "hero" and someone who is a true "knight of faith." The hero does not pass the test of faith; he will not sacrifice that which is most dear to him, the certain (Rachel) for the uncertain (redemption)... only the certain for the even more certain. The knight of faith, on the other hand:

Kierkegaard wrote:renounces everything, and perhaps at the same time barricades himself from the sublime joy that was so precious to him that he would buy it at any price.

...

The knight of faith is assigned solely to himself; he feels the pain of being unable to make himself understandable to others, but he has no vain desire to instruct others. The pain is his assurance...



In choosing Rachel, Batman has made the decision of a hero..that which was dearest to him over the uncertain redemtion, only to find it was never his decision to make; the joker had preconceived his actions and decided where he would end up, ultimately turning Batman into the knight of faith without him wanting to be. When he gets to the warehouse he realizes what has happened, and has no choice but to save Dent and deal with it.

I think that's the important thing to recognize..the cruelty of pushing Batman into the ultimate decison to be either a hero or a knight of faith and then turning him into the oppposite of what he wanted to be. A pretty sick joke?



Yeah people, let's not lose sight of the fact that the guy's name is The Joker.

He switched the locations.
"That man is a head taller than me.

...That may change."

Image

The Dark Knight

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Interesting review:

By James Howard Kunstler

The most striking thing about the new Batman movie, now smashing the all-time box office records, is its emphasis on sado-masochism as the animating element in American culture these days. It must appeal to the many angry people in our land who want to hurt others, even while they themselves feel deserving of the grossest punishments. In other words, the picture reflects the extreme depravity of the current American sensibility. Seeing it all laid out there must be very validating to the emotionally confused audience, and hence pleasurable, in all its painfulness.
The rich symbolism in this spectacle represents the tenor of contemporary America as something a few notches worse than whatever the Nazis were heading toward around 1933. We like nothing better than to see people suffer and watch things get broken. The more slowly people are tortured (including the movie audience) the more exquisite the pleasure derived from the act. Civilization offers no consolation. In fact, its a mug's game. Thus, civilization is composed only of torturers and their mug victims.
Gotham City, the setting for all these sadomasochistic vignettes, is a place devoid of comfort. (The suburbs are missing completely.) Even the personal haunts of "the Batman," a.k.a. zillionaire Bruce Wayne, are hard-edged non-spaces. His workplace (cleverly accessed via a dumpster) is an underground bunker the size of about three football fields with a claustrophobic drop ceiling and a single furnishing: the megalomaniacal computer console that is supposed to afford him "control" of the city, but which appears to be, in fact, a completely impotent sham piece of techno-junk, since it can't even outperform a $300 GPS unit in locating things. By the way, Hitler had a brighter sense of decor in the final days of the bunker. Bruce Wayne's personal apartment is one of those horrid glass-walled tower condos beloved of the starchitects, which, in its florid exposure to everything external practically screams "no shelter here!"
At the center of all this is the character called "The Joker." Judging by the reams of reviews and reportage about this movie elsewhere in the media, the death of actor Heath Ledger, who played the role, adds another layer of juicy sadomasochistic deliciousness to the proceedings -- we get to reflect that the monster on screen may have gotten away, but the anxiety-ridden young actor who played him was carted off to the bone orchard before the film even officially wrapped, (and therefore deserves extra special consideration for America's greatest honor, the Oscar award, while the audience deserves its own award for recognizing the lovely ironies embroidered in this cultural phenomenon.)
The Joker is not so much as person as a force of nature, a "black swan" in clown white. He has no fingerprints, no ID, no labels in his clothing. All he has is the memory of an evil father who performed a symbolic sadomasochistic oral rape on him, and so he is now programmed to go about similarly mutilating folks, blowing things up, and wrecking everyone's hopes and dreams because he has nothing better to do. He represents himself simply as an agent of "chaos." Taken at face value, he would seem to symbolize the deadly forces of entropy that now threatens to unravel real American life in the real world -- a combination of our foolish over- investments in complexity and the frightening capriciousness of both nature and history, which do not reveal their motivations to us.
By the way, forget about God here or anything that even remotely smacks of an oppositional notion to evil. All that's back on the cutting room floor somewhere (if it even got that far). And I say this as a non-religious person. But the absence of any possible idea of redemption for the human spirit is impressive. In the world of "the Batman," humanity at its very best is capable only of being confused about itself. This is perhaps an interesting new form of dramaturgy -- instead of good-versus-evil you only get befuddlement-versus-evil. Goodness has lost its way in the dark night of the American psyche, as might be understandable considering the nation of louts, liars, grifters, bullies, meth freaks, harpies, and tattooed creeps we have become. The best we can bring to this predicament is the low-grade pop therapy that passes for thinking nowadays in educated circles. Any consideration of the heroic is off the menu here. We can't ask that much of ourselves. It's too difficult to imagine. Meanwhile, The People -- that is, the citizens of Gotham City -- literally banish even the possibility of heroism from town at the end of the movie -- they take an axe to it! -- perhaps indicating that they deserve whatever befalls them or, shall I say, "us."
A few other striking elements of this spectacle deserve attention. One is the grandiosity that saturates the story elements, and the remarkable impotence of it all. The Batman possesses every high-tech weapon and survival implement ever dreamed up, yet they avail him nothing -- except a lot off sickening leaps off skyscrapers and futile hard landings on car roofs, shipping containers, sidewalks, and other human carcasses. I doubt the writers/director Chris and Jonathan Nolan consciously aimed to depict good old American ingenuity as utterly valueless in the face of chaos, but that's the effect. Otherwise, everything in the Batman's world is overscaled and out-of-whack from the size of Bruce Wayne's fortune (what an executive package his Daddy must have made off with, and from which investment bank?!), to the energy expended in so many car chases and explosions, to the super-sized doom-worthy towers of the gigantic, soulless city.
Finally there is the derivation of all this sadomasochistic nihilism out of a comic book. How appropriate, since we have become a cartoon of a society living on a cartoon of a North American landscape, that the deepest source of our mythos comes from cartoons. We're so far gone that real human emotion is beyond us. We're to far gone -- and even without shame -- to care how this odious movie portrays us to the rest of the world. It is already making a fortune out there.
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connor wrote:Why does every douche bag critic keep saying "the Joker's dad cut him up." The guy gave two wildly different stories about his scars (and started to give another one). Why is everyone so sure that it's the first one?


Lazy journalism/criticism. I dunno, maybe you have to be more of a comic nerd to understand that the Joker's not supposed to have a past. At all. Then again, there's a whole piece of dialogue where Gordon says "no ID, no fingerprints, nothing," so i suppose it's laziness after all.
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The Dark Knight

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DrAwkward wrote:
connor wrote:Why does every douche bag critic keep saying "the Joker's dad cut him up." The guy gave two wildly different stories about his scars (and started to give another one). Why is everyone so sure that it's the first one?


Lazy journalism/criticism. I dunno, maybe you have to be more of a comic nerd to understand that the Joker's not supposed to have a past. At all. Then again, there's a whole piece of dialogue where Gordon says "no ID, no fingerprints, nothing," so i suppose it's laziness after all.


Exactly. DC has given no less than three seperate stories as to how the Joker's origin tale plays out.

The initial vat of acid tale. The Killing Joke tale. At least one other if not more.

Critics don't bother to consider that the Joker is meant to be the opposite of Batman. While Batman's past is the thing that set him on the path to being Batman, you can't even be sure of what the Joker's past is.

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jurgis rudkus wrote:Interesting review:

By James Howard Kunstler

The gaeist thing I've ever read.


Somebody needs to fuck that guy in half. He saw a movie, without any background info, and he's accepted it as canon. He spouts off about how the movie depicts us as so nine inch nailed and he even gets the Joker's origin wrong. None of the stories should be taken truthfully, he spends the whole film showing how untruthful he is. Everything he does in the film is untruthful.

Anyway, fuck this guy. He talks about how the film depicts humanity as hopeless, and it's quite the opposite. The incident where the prisoners make the contrary decision, and the fact that one person says "hey, you know what? I'll carry the weight, because I want this city to heal" suggest the opposite.

I subscribe to the Killing Joke origin, but had no problem with them not nailing it down in this. They, both Nolan and Ledger, nailed the Joker perfectly. There will never be a better portrayal of the Joker in the next 100 years. The douche nozzle is right when he suggests that Ledger deserves the Oscar for this. He does. It's not going to happen, but he does.
I've seen the bridges burning in the night.

The Dark Knight

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The Code is Almighty wrote:
jurgis rudkus wrote:Interesting review:

By James Howard Kunstler

The gaeist thing I've ever read.


I did not write that 'gaeist' bit... and I would spell it 'gayest.'

The Code is Almighty wrote:Somebody needs to fuck that guy in half. He saw a movie, without any background info, and he's accepted it as canon. He spouts off about how the movie depicts us as so nine inch nailed and he even gets the Joker's origin wrong. None of the stories should be taken truthfully, he spends the whole film showing how untruthful he is. Everything he does in the film is untruthful.

Anyway, fuck this guy. He talks about how the film depicts humanity as hopeless, and it's quite the opposite. The incident where the prisoners make the contrary decision, and the fact that one person says "hey, you know what? I'll carry the weight, because I want this city to heal" suggest the opposite.

I subscribe to the Killing Joke origin, but had no problem with them not nailing it down in this. They, both Nolan and Ledger, nailed the Joker perfectly. There will never be a better portrayal of the Joker in the next 100 years. The douche nozzle is right when he suggests that Ledger deserves the Oscar for this. He does. It's not going to happen, but he does.


The interesting part is JHK's take on American appetites, not the film itself.

And I have not seen the film -- I'm an adult, so big budget, hyper-violent, Hollywood comic book shit does not appeal to me. :wink:

[Braces for shitstorm from fanboy Comicon nerds...]
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