Steely Dan

CRAP
Total votes: 62 (44%)
NOT CRAP
Total votes: 80 (56%)
Total votes: 142

Band: Steely Dan

251
steve wrote:My point is that the effort spent "perfecting" a record by retards is evidence of a substandard foundational idea -- good ideas need much less attention from retards to be palatable.

Since I'm interested in the ideas behind the music at least as much as the mere sound coming out of the speakers, I allow myself to remain unimpressed by the tits and eyebrows of the presentation.


I've been resisting a reply to Steve's posts because I don't want to be misconstrued as defending Steely Dan--they suck.

I agree with Steve that no amount of studio tomfoolery can mask "a substandard foundational idea." But I don't think that this means that the reverse is always true. Just because someone favors a more elaborate production (or "presentation"), it doesn't necessarily mean that it's some kind of attempt to overcompensate for a paucity of ideas. Led Zeppelin's records are pretty slickly produced at times, but that does not obscure the fact that they were a great band entirely capable of delivering the goods in a more stripped-down setting (as documents like How the West Was Won exhibit). They just wanted to make another kind of record.

I guess I'm thinking about this from my own point of view. I worked really hard to write what I thought were great songs, and to learn to sing and play them to the best of my ability. The more I worked on them, the more parts I started to hear in my head. When I finally got a chance to record them, I saw no reason not to bring in as many people as possible in an attempt to approximate how I envisioned these songs sounding. I might add that, by this time, the songs had been played live with numerous players, and that many of these parts originated with the players themselves, though they were sometimes prescribed. After a while, things got kind of crazy in the studio, not because I was some coke-addled megalomaniac, but because it was fun working with lots of different people and bringing together interesting singers and players who'd never worked together before. I was drunk on the possibilities, and I didn't want it to end. And guess what: the record just kept getting better.

Now, it may well be that this whole endeavor was an elaborate attempt to hide from the world the fact that I can't sing, but really I just think it's interesting to layer a song the same way I would revise a poem or a piece of fiction. And the records that made a deep impression on me early on--Queen, Elton John, Thin Lizzy--featured complicated presentations, as did the early 70's country records I love so much.

I understand one's preferring a more stripped down, primitivist aesthetic--I prefer it, too, in some cases. But those aren't the kinds of records I'm interested in making. That, as I see it, is what live performances are for. Besides, there are plenty of people out there doing the purist lo-fi thing; surely there's room for another approach to record-making.

Let me reiterate that my music sounds nothing like Steely Dan.
dontfeartheringo wrote:I need people to act like grown folks and I just ain't seeing it.

Band: Steely Dan

252
I tend to prefer records that are a photograph of the moment. The picture tends to be prettier when the band slams together with a select few punch-ins.

I am bothered by the "weak foundation" argument, however. Records like Pet Sounds and The Beatles [White Album] may be constructed, but the power of the foundational ideas expressed in these records is not lessened by the peripheral elements involved (add-ons, overdubs, whatever). These records (and plenty more like them) can be solid from start to finish.

I think I see the point you're making in the Devo example...I can sympathize with the "STORIES OF EXCESS!" perspective...but underneath some of the aforementioned "construct" bands are a number of solid ideas (and occasionally, fully solid albums). In addition, I appreciate seeing "Little Red Corvette" stripped down to its barest elements just as some of you like (<-???) to see "Billie Jean" "reinvented" by Robbie Fulks.


I concede that most of these "construction" records tend to be uneven...and working with Steely Dan-esque studio perfectionists is fucking maddening and often counterproductive with regards to capturing the best performances.

"Construction" recordings can be a great way to start learning how to put together recorded music, too...but the more bands (read: EA friendly bands) you listen to, the more a person wants to take a purdy picture.

EDIT: Misunderstood "specific instance."
Last edited by Minotaur029_Archive on Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
kerble wrote:Ernest Goes to Jail In Your Ass

Band: Steely Dan

253
Brett Eugene Ralph wrote:Besides, there are plenty of people out there doing the purist lo-fi thing; surely there's room for another approach to record-making.

You think there are as many "purist" records as there are fantastical records? You think it's even close?

The less-manicured approach is the rare "other" one, and it isn't nothing that most of my favorite records are like that.

And regardless, I think the difference between making a record like yours and being a lazy "perfectionist" "slaving" over a "masterpiece" is pretty evident.
steve albini
Electrical Audio
sa at electrical dot com
Quicumque quattuor feles possidet insanus est.

Band: Steely Dan

254
steve wrote:I think the difference between making a record like yours and being a lazy "perfectionist" "slaving" over a "masterpiece" is pretty evident.


Surely you aren't suggesting that my record is not a masterpiece. Because if it's not, my perfectionism was all for naught.
dontfeartheringo wrote:I need people to act like grown folks and I just ain't seeing it.

Band: Steely Dan

255
steve wrote:
Brett Eugene Ralph wrote:Besides, there are plenty of people out there doing the purist lo-fi thing; surely there's room for another approach to record-making.

You think there are as many "purist" records as there are fantastical records? You think it's even close?

The less-manicured approach is the rare "other" one, and it isn't nothing that most of my favorite records are like that.

And regardless, I think the difference between making a record like yours and being a lazy "perfectionist" "slaving" over a "masterpiece" is pretty evident.


Curious which category you would place the mid/late period Kraftwerk records? Sonic and performance precision (a 'manicured' sound) and perfection seem to be central to their aesthetic at this point in their history, but the records don't convey a strong sense of being over-embellished.
D. Perino deduced: "The Cuban Missile Crisis?...“It had to do with Cuba and missiles, I’m pretty sure.”

Band: Steely Dan

256
Also, can we not come up with instances where perfectionism, the slaving over details &cetera, in order (for instance) to crush the living soul out of it, are exactly an extension of the foundational idea behind the art? A rejection of the method and, from that, the presentation then really becomes a rejection of the underlying concept, but that's a different analytical cookie entirely: to isolate the method or presentation from the bigger whole is to overlook or ignore the artist's original intent.

And I think this could be said about Steely Dan, whom I like, and who I think knew exactly what they were doing.
Last edited by sunlore_Archive on Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Band: Steely Dan

257
Minotaur029 wrote: The Beatles [White Album] may be constructed, but the power of the foundational ideas expressed in these records is not lessened by the peripheral elements involved (add-ons, overdubs, whatever). These records (and plenty more like them) can be solid from start to finish.


Although I agree with everything else you posted, The Beatles is a bad example. The off-the-cuff tracks like "Revolution #9", "Yer Blues", "Helter Skelter", "Long Long Long" and "Why Don't We Do It In The Road?" far outshine the produced, constructed tracks like "Bungalow Bill", "Honey Pie", "Goodnight" and the doo-wop "Revolution" remake.

Talking Book, Heart of the Congos and Mothership Connection are better examples. Conceptually strong and hardly a bad track on them.

"Little Red Corvette"


Was worth the perfection.

Band: Steely Dan

258
Dr. O' Nothing wrote:
Black Sabbath:

Concept: To convey a sense of 'heaviness', 'doom', 'groove', 'catharsis', 'power', and explore sonic and lyrical territory undocumented (for the most part, at that time) in popular music, etc.

Execution: Drop D tuning, instruments tuned down an octave, Orange/HIWatt amps up to 11, appropriate lyrical content, repetitive riffs favored over chord progressions, religious/pagan imagery, etc.


And how many lousy bands have used this exact same archetype and have then failed to make good music?

You're proving my point for me. The notes are all that matter.
Gay People Rock

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests