warmowski wrote:

warmowski wrote:These are all decisions - even when they don't appear to be decisions at all - and these decisions are what add up to the statement.

I just felt like including that out-of-context statement because when I first read it, I really felt like I was reading something Don Rumsfeld had said. Kinda made me giggle for a split second. Thanks for that.

You explain what you see with the phrases you have, not the phrases you wish you had, or might want.

If not Rumsfeld, then how about Lee: If you choose not to decide...

-r

Well played!

I do agree that perhaps we've run afoul of our definitions of design. Perhaps we all haven't put enough design into our definitions of design...

Mazec wrote:The "big hole" design edges in toward the C direction, since 45 inserts are not always easy to come by anymore, especially not out in the boondocks, and this trend is likely to continue.

There's a label in these parts that has put out 2 7" records for my band, and the head honcho insists on the large hole, and they must be 45 RPM. Why? Because those are the 2 requirements for the records to be played in classic jukeboxes. Now, you may ask: Who the hell has one of those? Well, he does, that's who.

I bought a ton of inserts on eBay a couple years ago and I give them away whenever someone buys a record. I've also dropped off a couple handfuls at record stores in town that carry the label's records. They just sit them next to the cache of 7"s and whoever wants one takes one.

As far as the poll goes, I give a definite NOT CRAP! The 7" is my favorite format. Nothing better than spending an afternoon sitting next to the turntable with a stack of records, actively listening, looking at the artwork, rapidly rubbing my inner-thighs, reading the inserts, more rapid rubbing, etc....

Anyone else have that double Taylor 7" set that was recorded at EA? Awesomely snazzy packaging, interesting inserts......

that damned fly wrote:i have a tjl 7" single. marbled vinyl, pictures on the record instead of song titles.

sleeve says "side sims..., side yow..."

awesome.

"then comes dudley" 7", it's rare, i've been told.

There's at least two of them.
Yow side run-out message- "I dunno about you, but"
Sims side run-out message- "I'm far too drunk to play"
Great puke-purple vinyl.
7"s are not crap

NOT CRAP
I always like when I hear about a band and, not wanting to plunk down the cash for a full-length, discover for 3-4$ - the price of a pack of smokes - I can nab a few songs and check them out. (this is how I discovered The Thermals; too bad none of their stuff lived up the potential of that first 7"). I'll admit that the 7" can be and is frequently used as a 'throwaway' format, but it can also be a nice 4-10 minute art statement, a 'radio/mix tape hit' b/w 'band indulgences', or just a couple great songs.
I am 'in the know'; putting out at least 2 7"s a year for the last few years, and I will tell you 500$ won't get you all the pre-production FOR a 7" at Bill Smith, much less 500 copies. That's the norm. With most bands only putting out 500 records at a time, and then sending off 100+ for review, it's easy to see why some 7"s have hit the ugly 5$ mark. I've always sold them at a marked-down loss - if I wanted to make a profit, I wouldn't be doing music. I just love the format.

While there's been some neat design with jackets or whatever, I've bought too many records like that, only to be stiffed when the needle hits the vinyl. Anyone can put out a superneat packaging, you just need some geek with access to a college's art supplies. Anyone can put out a CD, anyone can put out a record, whatever. No format or packaging will give the music a 'get out of jail free' card if the band is ass.

Yes, the ideal sound quality is a 12" 45 rpm mastered onto the copper and pressed on 220g vinyl or whatever, but I still have some great, great sounding 7"s. As long as the length and frequencies respect the format and you don't go too cheap on any stage of the process, you can wind up with an acceptable sounding record that won't offend your sensitive audiophile sensations.

It's useless to worry whether or not you're "with the 21st century" with anything, whether it be music formats or whatever....

Does anyone have the first Brick 1-sided 7"? That's a perfect example of the format completely matching the intent of the music. I don't think even another side of that would do anything to increase the impact of that band and would in fact lessen it.

MrFood wrote:My point was that an overly-elaborate sleeve design may get the record noticed for the wrong reasons - my definition of overdesign.

Right. What you did was suggest that visual designers cannot simultaneously be musicians or vice versa when you made that point, and that irritated me. Also annoying was the summary trashing of "art-school" anything. Reading back, I was kind of harsh in attacking the point-maker instead of the point. Sorry.

warmowski wrote:Another thing they apparently didn't teach you in art school is the difference between personal axe-grinding and aesthetic evaluation.

No they didn't teach us this, because it's a retarded point to make which is rather obvious -

Doesn't seem nearly obvious to me reading your denunciation of motivation. Class complaints and bitterness, especially without visual examples are tough to take as anything but class complaints and bitterness standing in for evaluation.

..If you have been to art-school you will surely understand the negative effects of having such a high percentage of one elite demographic determining the dynamic of the course. If you haven't, then I guess it's a lot easier to sit there and accuse people of thuggish, inverted snobbery.

I'm sure what you describe happens inside art education, and that it has its regrettable effects on work produced. That's why I responded later to the idea of a recording being given short shrift in the process of making an elaborate rock record package/sleeve. And I honestly would like to deconstruct / spot-from-afar such examples, because it would be great fun.

You then came along and decided that through all your romantic bluster and wobbly semantics you were going to set me to rights ABOUT STUFF I ALREADY FUCKING KNOW. Fuck you.

If it helps, know that these wobbly, Rumsfeldian semantics aren't merely for your benefit, they are also for my own. I like to talk about this stuff, but I often don't precisely because of the academic/categorization and social-strata distractions the conversation produces. I (over)reacted to a depressing whiff of both.

warmowski wrote:If you ask me, visual design can't be overdone.

Here it is again, with a key point emboldened. Please bare this in mind.

warmowski wrote:Compelling music is not easy to make, and impossible to make without design of its component parts and relationships.

I am guilty of a confusing terseness. Yet, let me bold one of your words:

This is from where our confusion arose and where it becomes clear that we are almost talking about two different things.

Seems we agree that an impulse and acuity to select and interrelate elements is overlaid upon both visual and musical work. So you can see where "are they musicians or are they designers" is a bad starting point for discussion.

So: is overdesign actually underdesign? Does the "USA for Africa" example of cwiko's demonstrate this principle by exposing the mass-of-tiny-artist-headshots as a withholding of resources from the designer (panel space, dollars, conceptual integrity)? Is such cost adequately described as a limitation in full design? Is this sacrficice, this sop to the industry-norms of artist aggrandizement / spectacle best described as a curtailing of design or expansion of it?

-r

one of the greatest moments of my life was opening the box containing the first 7 inch my band ever made. Pure joy. I would like everyone on Earth to feel that excited, accomplished and happy at least for a few minutes of their life.

NOT CRAP!

Marsupialized wrote:one of the greatest moments of my life was opening the box containing the first 7 inch my band ever made.

Same w/ me, tho t'was a stack of 30 self-recorded, hand-dubbed cassettes w/ photocopied covers. I was 12, and I still get giddy thinking about it.

When I ran a record label, one of the funnerest, gayest things I liked to do was call the band when the records arrived and say, "David, Smell The Glove is here."

The idea of the 7" is cool - something limited and special.

NOT CRAP.