I believe it is up to the sound/recording engineer and the musician to work together to deliver the intended sound to the audience. The main reason I visit this forum is to learn more about the various ways engineers approach my instrument and how other musicians approach their sound. Also, there seems to be a great wealth of experience on this forum. Maybe one you could clear this question up for me:

If you are aiming for a resonate bass drum and have decided to put a hole in head for the benefit of some soundmen...It seems logical to me to put the hole as near the bearing edge as possible without compromising the seat of the head to the shell. Cutting the hole in the center of the head seems like it will remove the portion of the head that contributes the most depth and power to your "BOOM", since that is the part of the head that generates the largest wavelength and amplitude of the wave form.

What sort of qualifications do i need to add to my thinking here? Or is this even correct to begin with?

dear people who say that an intact front head is required to get that big kick drum sound:

http://www.acdccentral.com/photos/band/brian&angus5.jpg

I'm intrigued...

Perhaps the following question deserves its own thread, but since you're all here I will go on. I have been fairly happy with my 20" kick with a 5" offset hole for awhile. I use a decent quality head up there and the Evans equivalent of a P3 on the batter (I forget the code name, EQ3 maybe?). Lately, I've noticed some odd overtones coming from the front head that weren't there before. For some reason I wasn't able to retune the head to get it back to what I consider normal, so in a pinch I threw an old shirt in there just lightly touching the front head enough to soften the warble. I really hate to do this sort of thing as it is my understanding that the volume of the shell corresponds to the amount of air movement, and consequently, sound waves. In effect the shirt is absorbing a percentage of the boominess, right?

My plan was to get a felt strip for the front, but I don't like that option much because that messes with the bearing edge. I figure the head most likely needs to be changed, and I was just going to go get the same kind of head with the same sized and positioned hole -- presuming I'd be right back where I liked it. (BTW those hole reinforcement stickers are called RemO's made by REMO and they are only the thickness of an ambassador drumhead)

This is the way I've always done it, and I figured I was to do it this way as means to conveniently mic the drum. Asshat sound guys aside, I am now thinking (as a result of this thread) that I should go with the no hole technique. If so, what kind of head would you all recommend, keeping in mind that it is a 20x14 Ludwig from the sixties. It has sounded big before and I want to maximize that. I know of a head made by Evans that has 8-10 paper-punch sized holes around the perimeter that are covered by a thin muffle ring on the inside. Does that sound like the right way to go? What else might I try?


Tim

You are correct Hosemobile....I normally shoot for somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-5 o'clock and no more than the size of a coffee can. That's as big a hole as I ever use, sometimes smaller.....when using a hole at all. A coffee can size hole will fit a Shure Beta52, which is about the biggest mic you'll normally see at a club. AKG D112 is just a tad smaller and you'll have no trouble with the 421, M88 or RE20 either.
As mentioned earlier, use some form of the ring's that protect the edges after you cut the hole. This keeps the mics from tearing the head installing or removing from drum.
later,
m

While I realize this thread has just become another "shit on the soundguy" thread, I'm going to make an attempt to make some serious points.
Yes, when hearing a drum kit acoustically in a room, I prefer to the sound of a kick drum with an intact front head. Unfortunately, it just plain doesn't work for live venues most of the time.
The point is that when you're playing a gig and your trying get the kick drum to be audible through everything else, that great, natural kick drum completely disappears. Few clubs have the power to get a kick drum with a front head across in the mix. Especially when drummers always want the kick drum at maximum possible level in the monitors. Having that resonant head makes the mic feedback a lot easier so you have to have the mic a few inches back from the drum. Then, of course, the gain has to be cranked so now you're picking up plenty of the bass amp, gtrs, whatever else might be anywhere near. So you're left with no attack and lots of bleed. This pretty much makes it impossible to get it loud enough to hear. Even if you can, chances are your mix has now turned into a muddy mess. So yeah you're kick drum might sound a bit more like the way you want it to sound, but you'll be the only one who has any idea what it sounds like (although you still won't be able to hear it yourself in the monitor). Your choice.
Of course I'm not saying this is the case all the time. If the drummer is loud, the drums are tuned well, the band's stage volume is under control, the venue has PLENTY of headroom in both the FOH and monitors, then yeah, it can work. But how often is that the case?

The truth is that I think my kick has a great live room sound. I have played shows, where experienced musicians, in the audience, swore I had the kick miced and it was not. It was not that I am an exceptionally loud player, but the kick is tuned and resonates well and also, I do not put anything inside the kick for muffling. I use a powerstroke 3 on the back and the old felt strips on the front head. I know some people will say felt strip mess with the bearing edge, but when you learn how to tune and seat the head correctly, this is become no problem. None of my bearing edges are perfect, but I know how to tune the kit correctly. I would not trade any set for it. The set is an old Slingerland made in Niles. It has thinner shells and the kick is only 14" deep. 22"x14" I think the thinner and shallow shells on the kick are just louder.

On a side note I think power toms are crap. There depth is disproportion to the desired tuning, but that is another topic.

Something of possible interest
During Mardi Gras in Mobile, you have these ten, or so, member jazz groups marching, with one guy playing a scotish bass drum. He is not beating the hell out of the drum, but the sound is hitting you in the chest. You can physically feel the sound pressure. It is weird. You can be standing ten people back in the crowd and it literally vibrates you.

I just wanted to add that because, I have always been amazed by that.

Anyway, it seem as though I am playing in the soundman's bar on his equipment. He should know what works. I guess should go the path of least resistance and cut a hole in the head.

In the past, when I did have a hole in the head, I cut the smallest possible hole for a mic, and it was a little of center. I was thinking that even though it had a hole in the head, the air column would still strike the center of the front head and resonate. I always tensioned the T-rods near the hole a little tighter to balance the surface tension across the head. However, I did go through quite a few heads. Many times, at the end of the night there was a mic cord laying in the split area of the head. Once I learned to keep the cord out of the way, the problem seemed to go away.

As far as the stick on things around the hole. I am with Steve. My concern is that I still want the resonance. The extra weight of the stick on things seem to deaden the sound.

Just to drag this subject on, I, being myself a soundman and drummer, prefer a full head. the best kick drum I have ever heard was a 16"x26" maple with absolutely no hole and a single ply coated head on the beater side. I would never tell any drummer to put a hole in the drum to make my job easier but more often than not the problem is not access but tuning. Most drummers, especially those young ones that have been handed money and a nice kit by some shitty pop-lunk label, don't tune their drums before they play. More time is spent dicking around with the double bass pedal, trying impress to female bartender.

As far as click goes, I abhore it unless absolutely necessary. I think it sounds unnatural and just plain goofy. I actually had a guitar player tell me once to add more click to the bass drum. I laughed at him and then put my servant's cap back on and did just that. I felt like a whore. And not even a pretty whore.

I agree to a certain extent in the general outlook that all soundmen are shit but at the same time I have dealt with quite a few good ones and have dealt with far more bands with amazingly horrific attitudes and incredible lack of talent or invention. The contention that we are all vindictive lummoxes is a tad bit off base and just plain hurtful. I am tearing up. A bowed head, weepy, five year old tearing. Look, now I am sad. Imagine how your life would be if on a nightly basis you had to listen to some of the most incomprehensibly worst shit ever expunged from the anal tunnels of every juvenile pseudo-punk mini major record label in the country. You might get a bit moody as well. I guarantee if you walk in the door wth an Orange County Drum and Percussion kit I will be a tad bit apprehensive. I am sorry that is who I am. But I will be nice. Just don't hit on the bartender, I have a crush on her. And please don't put a hole in my head. And certaily don't ask for more flute in you wedge. I am doing all I can.

Jon

I gotta add some more info as well. I'm a big fan of the sound of solid front heads....on most drums that is. So, last night I had a gig and brought my 70s Ludwig kit with a solid front head. It's a big kit....16x24kick, 14" tom, 16" & 18" floor toms. No muffling on any drums. A powerstroke 3 on the batter of the kick and a clear ambassador on the front.
The drums were great sounding and tuned well. The kick absolutely roared. The soundguy really understands our band overall and always gets a great sound out of whatever kit i bring to gigs. He's a studio guy by day and FOH engineer by night, so I think he's really good at knowing about different techniques other than just jamming a mic in the hole.
So, again, it can be good, but overall, if I were on the road where I didn't know what the room, PA or soundguy was going to be like from night to night, I'd definitely carry around a head with a hole just in case. This is if I was primarily wanting a solid head. Just like you say they should be able to get a good sound, it's their job. Well, if you really know how to tune and are well versed in this, you should be able to adapt in less than perfect conditions....which this would be.

So, big shoutout to the soundguy last night.

later,
m