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penningtron wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:28 am Yeah. I think the difference is some of those bands, while 'harder' than the Sex Pistols, still have some rock'nroll backbeat and swagger, and hardcore stripped that stuff away. (for better or worse)

Okay, I keep thinking about this side of the discussion. The questions of punk vs hardcore are good, and at some point a genre is a mirage.... but I thought your mention of the Chuck Berry elements in early Flag was really astute.

So here's my rough theory:

Play Sex Pistols, Ramones, Clash etc in a row. You're going to find most songs are heavy emphasis on "Louie, Louie" chords: I- IV- V, and those melodic leads you mentioned.

So this makes a song like "Sailin On" , basically a supercharged punk song. If you slow it down and sand off the edges it's almost a 60's rock song. The chorus is just a bit weird for that though:




Then you see where they go with "Fearless Vampire Killers".


The intro is B, G, D, C#, B, so kind of a B minor thing
Verse:D, G, F, E, D, C, D, which is not so much of a B minor thing. Kind of D major with the flatted 7, mixolydian style, still pretty rock and roll I guess, but then they flatted the F so really it's like it changed from B minor/D major to D minor.
Chorus: E, G, A, F#, B- so what the fuck is the F# doing now, when it was natural before? Now we're really in D major? But they're not even playing D major, so I guess we're back to a B minor thing.

If you're saying here, "Dude. The Bad Brains give not a fuck what key they're in." You're probably right. But the chord choices tell our brains things. This song uses 8 different chords and shifts around to the point where it's kind of key changing, but almost all of the chords are power chords so there isn't a ton of harmony to make it clear. The chords sometimes move so fast they're almost like lead lines, like a melody with a constant fifth, instead of an old school rhythm section is painting the harmony picture for us, kind of thing.

This is where hardcore really clicks into its own thing for me. It's way less "classic" pop rock than "God Save the Queen" or "Beat on the Brat". It's a weird blend of sophistication and primitivism. If I really wanted to carry on I'd say a song like The Damned's "New Rose" is a path way out of trad punk into a hardcore way of writing chord progressions. Kind of the punk 1.5, if hardcore is 2.0.

You could also take apart a Minor Threat song and see how NOT I, IV, V it is, but I've carried on long enough!

My theory: Bad Brains wrote some pretty involved music with lots of changes and accents, but played those songs for years and they got faster and faster. Playing a song 5-10bpm faster than a recording just sounds like a fast version of the song. Playing it 30+bpm faster fundamentally changes its DNA! Young bands probably heard those super fast versions and thought holy fuck, wanted to do that too but had to take shortcuts to get there, which is where the stripping away begins. Instead of a na-na-na-na sort of base beat you get the triplet thing dun-na na-na-na happening to reach those speeds.

The 'deconstructed' melodies may have been accidental. Krautrock bands had a similar, maybe more conscious attempt to remove as much American RnB influence in order to sound more 'modern'. Maybe some of the barebones progressions in hardcore achieved a similar thing?

penningtron wrote: My theory: Bad Brains wrote some pretty involved music with lots of changes and accents, but played those songs for years and they got faster and faster. Playing a song 5-10bpm faster than a recording just sounds like a fast version of the song. Playing it 30+bpm faster fundamentally changes its DNA! Young bands probably heard those super fast versions and thought holy fuck, wanted to do that too but had to take shortcuts to get there, which is where the stripping away begins. Instead of a na-na-na-na sort of base beat you get the triplet thing dun-na na-na-na happening to reach those speeds.

Well said! I always thought that hearing Black Dots for the first time was like those time-lapse instant replays in Coyote/Roadrunner cartoons where Roadrunner's real time blur can be seen as a long intricate string of detailed actions executed at super high speed.

Weren't the three instrumentalists in Bad Brains ex-fusion musicians? Dr. Know's leads often sounded like John McLaughlin. They had a jazzy feel similar to early Megadeth (in a way).

I'm not and never have particularly been into hardcore, even though I like a handful of bands that orbit the genre. My favorites—say, Spike in Vain, Effigies, or Rudimentary Peni—tend to fall just outside of the borders. Adjacent to it, but maybe not quite of it.

But here goes:

Black Flag (Only The First Four Years even vaguely applies, and even that seems more like straight punk or proto-core. *Whatever it is, it's great.)

Bad Brains (Up to and including the metal damage of I Against I, awful production and all. ROIR and before is almost flawless, though.)

Terveet Kädet (Taking Discharge and improving on it massively by sounding meaner and freakier, at least till the metal takes over in the late '80s. Eurocore does not get better than the hilariously titled Ääretön Joulu EP.)

Hüsker Dü (Only the stuff after the first single and before Metal Circus counts as hardcore, but holy shit, what a blur.)

Malignant Growth (Obscure and underdocumented, yes, but taking the seed of Flag and planting it in more firmly HC territory, all gnarled guitar leads and Middle American anguish. One demo tape ended up as comp tracks and a very posthumous 7-inch. Would love to hear more.)

*Trial by Fire (An alternate, in case Flag doesn't count. Although this barely qualifies as well, as there's plenty of post-punk noise plus a grey, tough Chicago veneer that has more in common w/early Effigies and All Rise-era Naked Raygun. Still, it's way faster and more youthful-sounding, so...)

Honorable mentions: Solger, pre-metal Void...

Teacher's Pet wrote:

penningtron wrote: My theory: Bad Brains wrote some pretty involved music with lots of changes and accents, but played those songs for years and they got faster and faster. Playing a song 5-10bpm faster than a recording just sounds like a fast version of the song. Playing it 30+bpm faster fundamentally changes its DNA! Young bands probably heard those super fast versions and thought holy fuck, wanted to do that too but had to take shortcuts to get there, which is where the stripping away begins. Instead of a na-na-na-na sort of base beat you get the triplet thing dun-na na-na-na happening to reach those speeds.

Well said! I always thought that hearing Black Dots for the first time was like those time-lapse instant replays in Coyote/Roadrunner cartoons where Roadrunner's real time blur can be seen as a long intricate string of detailed actions executed at super high speed.

If I'm not mistaken, SST label manager Joe Carducci theorized that various DC and Boston drummers tried to copy the Latin tresillos (triplets) that snuck their way into the style of Black Flag member and Colombian national Robo. Speed that up and remove some of the finesse, and you end up w/that polkacore beat.

OrthodoxEaster wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:01 pm Malignant Growth

One of our own! I miss BER's posts here.

I don't remember exactly if it was here, or one of the handful of conversations we had IRL, but I agree with his perspective that hardcore was a youthful thing one usually grows out of pretty quickly, and those that don't.. *gives concerned look*



That shirt is still incredible. Yes it's the bug spray..

penningtron wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:50 pmThat shirt is still incredible. Yes it's the bug spray..

I have seen this photo many times, but wow, I did not catch that detail. Thank you for pointing it out. Amazing.

I think two or three members of this band worked as garbagemen during MG's existence. And while that's nothing to romanticize, it's somehow consistent w/the shirt being an extremely clever recycling job.

OrthodoxEaster wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 7:40 am I have seen this photo many times, but wow, I did not catch that detail. Thank you for pointing it out. Amazing.

I think two or three members of this band worked as garbagemen during MG's existence. And while that's nothing to romanticize, it's somehow consistent w/the shirt being an extremely clever recycling job.

He told the story here at least once of first hearing about punk rock bands, found that shirt at a thrift store or whatever but not realizing it wasn't the band logo. I'm sure it was eventually pointed out but he just decided to own it.

Why on earth did a bug spray company make shirts..

penningtron wrote:

OrthodoxEaster wrote: Wed Apr 17, 2024 7:40 am I have seen this photo many times, but wow, I did not catch that detail. Thank you for pointing it out. Amazing.

I think two or three members of this band worked as garbagemen during MG's existence. And while that's nothing to romanticize, it's somehow consistent w/the shirt being an extremely clever recycling job.

He told the story here at least once of first hearing about punk rock bands, found that shirt at a thrift store or whatever but not realizing it wasn't the band logo. I'm sure it was eventually pointed out but he just decided to own it.

Why on earth did a bug spray company make shirts..

What a great story.

The bugs>the bars.

Mr. Bubble bath-product shirts were sort of a big ironic deal for a spell in the '80s and '90s. But uh, insect repellant? I dunno, man! For conventions and trade purposes, maybe? They're probably bootlegs, but it looks like you can still buy Raid shirts online. Granted, they're much tackier than either Black Flag's logo.

1. Minor Threat
2. Hüsker Dü
3. Black Flag (Up through Damaged, mostly Keith Morris era for me)
4. Void
5. Dead Kennedys