Whatever Jane Fonda did during the Vietnam war was of propaganda value only to the VC. To call her treasonous is absurd.

Of all the lying, killing, torturing and destruction of life wrought by that war, to single out a dim-witted actress as a principle target for shame or retaliation is to reduce the true criminals to footnotes. This is a hoary, disgusting perversion of wrath that, if vented against those responsible for genuine suffering, would be rained down on many of those "brave" veterans, politicians who have made careers off of it, and the consortium of defense profiteers who have padded their estates with it.

That war was stupid, brutal, wrong and genuinely evil. No one who participated in it is entirely above suspicion, nor entirely guilty for its horrors. It was a rotting pig carcass being fucked by troglodites; Nothing about it deserves our respect, except possibly the sense of duty that made draftees suffer through it.

Jane Fonda? That's who you've chosen to be mad at?

That's like blaming the gnats for a tornado, because they have wings that move air.

Whatever Jane Fonda did during the Vietnam war was of propaganda value only to the VC. To call her treasonous is absurd.

Aiding and comforting the enemy during wartime comes precariously close to the definition of treason. Nobody can argue that she, at bare minimum, dangled her foot over that line just long enough to make millions of Americans condemn her even now, over 35 years later.

Of all the lying, killing, torturing and destruction of life wrought by that war, to single out a dim-witted actress as a principle target for shame or retaliation is to reduce the true criminals to footnotes.

Steve, none of those other "criminals" went to Vietnam during the war to shake the hands, hug and congratulate those who shot down our planes - all in front of the Vietnamese cameras to share with the troops to keep morale up. None of those "criminals" volunteered to broadcast anti-American sentiments over Vietnamese radio to the troops to keep morale up. None of them asked POW's if they feel guilty for bombing babies, or called them liars when they returned with horror stories of how they were torchured.
Like it or not, Jane Fonda is the universal symbol of the Anti-War movement in the U.S. back then - and always will be. She is singled out for her unforgivable actions - dim-witted actress or not. Footage of her and her braless tits chumming around with Vietnamese soldiers will most certainly be flashed across our screens when the networks do a videography of her life when she dies. It's her legacy.

"brave" veterans

Why the quotes around the word brave? I won't try to guess.

Jane Fonda? That's who you've chosen to be mad at?

First, I was barely able to shit into a toilet on my own when this war ended. I knew nothing, nor remember nothing about this war. Over time, school, etc... I learned what it was all about and think it was quite senseless. However, I also think that the treatment of those coming back from that war was reprehensible. Furthermore, I think that what Jane Fonda did is unforgivable. I don't blame her for the war, nor wish her harm. But I can empathize with any Veteran who would see fit to spit in her face for what she did.
Would I do it? No.
Would I judge someone who fought over there who did? No.

Shit.
I f-ed the quote function again.
I shall retire to the porch to spit on myself.

6-4-3 wrote:Like it or not, Jane Fonda is the universal symbol of the Anti-War movement in the U.S. back then - and always will be. She is singled out for her unforgivable actions - dim-witted actress or not. Footage of her and her braless tits chumming around with Vietnamese soldiers will most certainly be flashed across our screens when the networks do a videography of her life when she dies. It's her legacy.

It's ridiculous to assert that Fonda is the "universal symbol of the anti-war movement." Try reading a history book. There was a huge movement against the war in this country. It encompassed many groups of people, for many different reasons. The anti-war movement also involved thousands of returned veterans. You can read about their take on your whole "they got spit on by hippies" angle here:

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=350

It seems like you think that participation in the anti-war movement was inherently illegitimate. You're entitled to that opinion, but don't bullshit yourself that it somehow makes you more patriotic or committed to the higher ideals of this country.

It's ridiculous to assert that Fonda is the "universal symbol of the anti-war movement." Try reading a history book. There was a huge movement against the war in this country. It encompassed many groups of people, for many different reasons. The anti-war movement also involved thousands of returned veterans.

Kid,
Off the top of your head, name another anti-Vietnam activist.
One name, is all I ask - without Googling it.
Baseball = Babe Ruth
Hockey = Wayne Gretzgy
Home Improvement = Bob Vila
Masturbatory aid = Jergans
anti-Vietnam War activist = Jane Fonda

Outside of you, 99 out of 100 other people on the street will say Jane Fonda as well. Quit bullshitting yourself.

It seems like you think that participation in the anti-war movement was inherently illegitimate.

How does it seem that way? Not once have I ever typed or implied that protesting is illegitimate. I love the fact that we can protest all we want without having to worry about being shot or run over by a tank. I typed that going over there to help, hang out with and aid the enemy is unforgivable - there's a difference there. Quit typing words into my thoughts on the matter.

don't bullshit yourself that it somehow makes you more patriotic or committed to the higher ideals of this country.

Moot and somewhat laughable that you could glean that notion from any of my posts.

Well jeez, I don't suppose John Lennon was involved in the anti-war movement in any way, was he? Abbie Hoffman?

http://www.cyberessays.com/History/103.htm

If anyone is to blame for the Vietnam conflict, lets look at history. First starting with France which extended into the 1950's. They did such a swell job just like with Algiers and any other place where they had colonial power. Next on the blame game is JFK, and more importantly Lyndon Johnson. Ironically, people would like to blame Nixon when Johnson should be chastised more for increasing military actions in Vietnam while Nixon was for evacuating troops during his first term. As for Jane Fonda, she should be held accountable for her actions because she is a celebrity and has influence with the media to affect the situation. Uneducated people who don't actually take the time to research the situation are more inclined to believe someone like Fonda was justified for what she did. Personally, I think she was just jumping on the political, hipster "I am a Communist/radical" bandwagon that was popular at the time. While one shouldn't condone the actions of this Vietnam vet, its the intention behind it. There are certain wounds that don't easily cauterize. Fonda has yet to really understand it, and making that lame movie Coming Home doesn't do anything to exempt her for her actions.

6-4-3 wrote:Steve, none of those other "criminals" went to Vietnam during the war to shake the hands, hug and congratulate those who shot down our planes - all in front of the Vietnamese cameras to share with the troops to keep morale up. None of those "criminals" volunteered to broadcast anti-American sentiments over Vietnamese radio to the troops to keep morale up. None of them asked POW's if they feel guilty for bombing babies, or called them liars when they returned with horror stories of how they were torchured.

You're right. They only did little, forgiveable things like burn entire villages to the ground after killing every living thing in them, rape women by the hundreds, illicitly bomb uninvolved neighboring countries, lie to the entire American public, press tens of thousands of our citizens into service, make criminals of those who resisted, engage in chemical warfare, drop napalm on civilians -- all in service of a ridiculous notion that we could kill enough people to direct the march of history in a country where we had no direct interest. But fuck Jane Fonda and her photo-op. She's worse.

Like it or not, Jane Fonda is the universal symbol of the Anti-War movement in the U.S. back then - and always will be. She is singled out for her unforgivable actions - dim-witted actress or not. Footage of her and her braless tits chumming around with Vietnamese soldiers will most certainly be flashed across our screens when the networks do a videography of her life when she dies. It's her legacy.

And given the legacies of Robert MacNamara, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Henry Kissinger -- hell, even the troops on the ground who were coerced into conducting bloodthirsty killing sprees -- it's one to be proud of.

Yes, proud. She was wrong in specifics, and stupid in presentation, but she was on the right side. The Vietnam war had two sides: For and Against. To suggest that being For is better than being Against (however dim-wittedly Against) is to side with pure evil.

"brave" veterans

Why the quotes around the word brave? I won't try to guess.

Because it is not brave to do as you are told when you fear the consequences. It is brave to do the right thing, despite the consequences. Did those soldiers think they were right? Then they were brave, and probably assholes. Did they do what they were asked, because they had a sense of duty to their country? Then they were being compliant. Did they do what they did because circumstances forced them into immediate situations that required bravery? Then they were brave, and pitiful. Did they do it because they didn't want to be punished? Then they were coerced. Individual acts of bravery are ultimately less important than the arc of a lifetime of behavior, dictated by one's morals. A brave moment in a career supporting evil and cowardice is not bravery, it is a moment.

I have great sympathy for the soldiers on the ground. They got fucked whole-dong in this one. They suffered and were not appreciated for it. But they were fighting a war they had no business in, and I say fuck the men who sent them.

6-4-3 wrote:
Kid,
Off the top of your head, name another anti-Vietnam activist.
One name, is all I ask - without Googling it.
Baseball = Babe Ruth
Hockey = Wayne Gretzgy
Home Improvement = Bob Vila
Masturbatory aid = Jergans
anti-Vietnam War activist = Jane Fonda

Outside of you, 99 out of 100 other people on the street will say Jane Fonda as well. Quit bullshitting yourself.

It seems like you think that participation in the anti-war movement was inherently illegitimate.

How does it seem that way? Not once have I ever typed or implied that protesting is illegitimate. I love the fact that we can protest all we want without having to worry about being shot or run over by a tank. I typed that going over there to help, hang out with and aid the enemy is unforgivable - there's a difference there. Quit typing words into my thoughts on the matter.

don't bullshit yourself that it somehow makes you more patriotic or committed to the higher ideals of this country.

Moot and somewhat laughable that you could glean that notion from any of my posts.

Ron Kovic. Howard Zinn. Dr. Spock. John Kerry. Abbie Hoffman.
Without googling it.
99 out of 100 people who don't know shit about history, or are deliberately trying to misrepresent it, might say Jane Fonda.
Your previous posts basically equated Jane Fonda with the anti-war movement. I don't think I'm putting words in your mouth when I say that. I think you implied that millions of people who risked more and suffered more to bring an end to the war are essentially the same as a flighty actress who hung around with some NVA soldiers while displaying "braless tits," as you put it.
I'll accept that maybe I'm mistaken in the way I interpret your position. But I think my interpretation is quite rational.

I think I get the distinction.

"Brave":

Brave:

Jane Fonda's apologized not for what she said but how she said it, which seems appropriate. Robert MacNamara has apologized for his actions as well, which seems inadequate. I wonder if this guy ever considered spitting on MacNamara.