this is an interesting discussion. the first two paragraphs of tmidgett are right on; even if they weren't, i think to imply that rap politics are any more "comic book" than rock politics is ridiculous.

Did anyone say rock politics weren't ridiculous?

Who is the rap-political foil to Bono? Surely not Chuck D! Certainly neither of Ice T nor Cube!

I would venture to liken hip-hop to folk music, but not really in any way that rock can't be used in the same way. Hip-hop is more effective at this than rock, given its emphasis on lyrical content (content which is, of course, more often than not squandered on self-aggrandizing, booty-chasing trashtalk... which has its own charms.)

I heard a spot on the radio about a guy in Africa who was recently murdered by government soldiers because they overheard him reciting a politically charged song by a local rapper. I'll take that as evidence of politics that are more than 'comic book' serious.

gio wrote:Did anyone say rock politics weren't ridiculous?

I will. At their highest level, rock politics have changed many things, including living conditions for many people in the world. I think there is no hip hop equivalent to the political effectiveness of people like Bono, Crass, Chumba Wumba (sp?), the Ex, Fugazi and others I could think-up if I tried harder. Nobody even close, unless you admire Russel Simmons' voter registration campaign as much as I did.

Who is the rap-political foil to Bono? Surely not Chuck D! Certainly neither of Ice T nor Cube!

You're right. None of them have successfully lobbied for the forgiveness of third-world debt, brought water, food and sanitation projects to Africa or forced national leaders to confront their responsibilities publicly. You're right, they're not in Bono's league.

Bono's sin is his art, not his political will or effort.

I do not want to go tit-for-tat about which is less ridiculous, as there are ridiculous examples in all genres, but I think equating them is equally misleading.

tmidgett is absolutley right that I am immune ("deaf" in his words) to the charms of hip hop. I cannot hear it in innocence so that I could be charmed by it the for first time. Since my first exposure to it, I have thought it shallow, stupid, belligerent and reactionary, and its pride in these things (and general self-absorption) makes it impenetrable and unrewarding for me. Exactly like the Nuge.

I have thought it shallow, stupid, belligerent and reactionary, and its pride in these things (and general self-absorption) makes it impenetrable and unrewarding for me. Exactly like the Nuge.

yet a distaste for the Nuge doesn't prevent an appreciation of rock music? much of hip hop is exactly as you describe it and at the same time your description could be liberally applied to much of rock music.

i'm not a fan of hip hop but only because i like the sound of live instruments and singing two things there are a dearth of in rap. it's not your thing, which is fine, but your critique does not account for any dislike you would have for rap music that does not involve stupidity, belligerence, etc.

touche.

(which i can't spell without 'ouch')

Though I must say, though it could be a nitpick, that if Bono's sin is in his art, it's not the rock music that has the influence on improving 3rd world nations--it's his status as an icon, which he achieved through rock music, which could have just as well been achieved through another genre.

That being said, Fugazi and Crass are examples of rock music that successfully embeds politics in its art. So I'll admit that I was hasty in a tasteless attempt at a joke.

Still, I'll say hip-hop does the same, and can have positive social effects, though perhaps in different contexts. I think groups like Tribe and De La Soul, extremely successful rap groups I grew up with, have no qualms about their pursuit of a sending out distinctly positive messages amidst a sea of negativity in their genre. And it goes back to the roots of the genre, back to Grandmaster Flash. There is nothing belligerent about 'The Message.' Quite the contrary.

As far as results heretofore, well, I just don't know enough about hip-hop to cite examples... but I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say the genre is inherently incapable of producing such changes, because of immaturity or otherwise. If you accept that African Americans have been an extremely disenfranchised until very recently, and that rock music is a solid thirty years more mature than hip-hop, I think it's understandable that the latter has yet to enact large-scale positive effects.

To be more specific about the political activist rapper whose lyrics incite violence from the government, his name is MC Kapa (or Capa?) and I think he's from Liberia, though I'm not sure because I've yet to find the reference.

...and finally:

http://www.fieldmuseum.org/hiphop/index.html

....

Kim Gordon has the social power to incite a serious debate about the value of rap music.

... political effectiveness of people like Bono, Crass, Chumba Wumba (sp?), the Ex, Fugazi and others I could think-up

I'm interested how in the world you (and others) measure or approximate the "political effectiveness" of, say, Crass versus Public Enemy.

If you have any proven method of quantifying "political effectiveness", I would like to know how Fugazi stands against Dead Prez. Or how Flux of Pink Indians compares to NWA.

I think Kim is a great bass player once in a while, but, for the most part I wish she wouldn't sing at all. In my opinion, she's responisible for a large part of SY songs that are truly fucking awful.

kim gordon, I like her bass!! i like her vox!!
i LIKE Sonic Youth!!!

tmidgett is absolutley right that I am immune ("deaf" in his words) to the charms of hip hop

steve, si, 'immune,' she is more accurate term to use, and less pejorative, which is good not to use the word 'deaf' in reference to a recording engineer!

so you are 'immune!' or 'desensitized,' or even insensitive,' perhaps! but not 'deaf!' or deaf!

hip-hop, she is more like 'heavy metal' than 'rock music.' she is genre of the 'black popular music' category just as 'heavy metal' is genre of the 'white popular music' category. so i think to compete 'hip-hop' w/the broad spectrum of rockers, she is semi-unfair. to compete with the ltd spectrum of heavy metal, she is maybe more fair.