tmidgett wrote:bass players do half-step things as passing tones all the time. i do it all the time and probably picked it up from peter hook of joy division and new order, unless it was jah wobble, unless it was james jamerson, unless it was wherever kim gordon picked it up. i think it's partly to create a pervasive and dramatic sense of unease in the music and partly to stave off boredom. if it's the latter, it's bound to be inappropriate at times.

The problem with the Interpol song is precisely that he used the G# as the destination note when it was supposed to be a passing tone and in fact it would have worked beautifully and completely along the aesthetic lines they're so entrenched in if it had in fact passed up to the A.

Entirely subjective. Listen. If you wrote the Interpol song and in your original version or score the G# did resolve to A, and then Interpol plays it and doesn't resolve the G#, then you might be able to make a case for calling a stylistic choice a "mistake."

A misstep, perhaps, but certainly not a mistake. A poor judgement call, because you wouldn't have done it the same way, but certainly not a mistake.

I stand by this unless the bass player from Interpol hops up on this board and cops to not wearing headphones when they were recording this song, and then, I don't know, being ill when they mixed the song, and he didn't hear the non-resolution until it hit the radio and everyone/everything was unalterable and committed.

I guess I didn't know that there was a Complete And Perfect Universal Rulebook when it comes to crafting music.

Certainly, choices offend our own personal musical lexicon. But it remains a stylistic choice.

I can - or perhaps even better - my mom can call Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music amazing, or a giant waste of time, or noise or beauty, but to call it a mistake is to completely do disservice to all of the decisionmaking and personal effort that went into the craft of sound into music.

A mistake is an action.

A decision is a direction.

The problem with the Interpol song is precisely that he used the G# as the destination note when it was supposed to be a passing tone and in fact it would have worked beautifully and completely along the aesthetic lines they're so entrenched in if it had in fact passed up to the A.

Perhaps that's exactly why they didn't resolve it.

----

I said that all good music contains dissonance

Are you saying only dissonant music is good music?

You're going to have to elaborate on this (or provide examples).

In "Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge..." by Nirvana there is a point where the bass accidentally lands on the half step below the "correct" note before landing on it. This "mistake" seems uncalculated and was most likely the result of a human foible or at the very least the loose ears of the musicians. He probably just hadn't reached far enough. Nonetheless this half second mistake...I can hardly find words to express how a simple mistake turned into the high point of the song, the thing I crave from the moment the song starts. The mistake itself is just the most subtle blasphemy...

The above was written before I read Mr. Chimp's post.

Has anyone heard the Interpol song I'm talking about?

It's frustrating that you're all arguing along theoretical lines that I'd agree with but that don't take into account the actuality of that song. But I haven't digested his post yet so this isn't a response either.

"Francis Farmer" contains a note which could constitue a mistake.
(no one knows for sure unless they were there - or some other such documentation)


Interpol song contains notes which constitutes a choice.



I'll cop to not having the disc in front of me. I am familiar with the song, and will reaffirm and give it a listen tonight.


Now I seriously have to work.

First of all replace all instances of me calling something a “mistake” with “a decision that didn’t heed the principles that this piece of music relies on for its effect.” Or to cop someone else’s terminology: a decision that undercut the artist’s “capability of applying its aesthetic” thereby casting doubt upon whether the artist is even “capable of formulating and understanding (not necessarily explaining) a singular theory that lies at the heart of the subject's work.”

Goodbye subjectivity.

My use of the word mistake (because it’s pompous? I assume) raised hackles in this discussion that distracted from what originally interested me. I would really be interested in hearing an Interpol fan explain their reaction to that specific G#.

I guess I didn't know that there was a Complete And Perfect Universal Rulebook when it comes to crafting music.

Rock music doesn’t have a universal rulebook thank god but Interpol’s principles and aesthetics are consistent and ruly, as I already said. Their music does not create meaning by subverting Western Musical Theoretical principles in the way that the G#, if it weren't a mistake, would’ve had to.

I can - or perhaps even better - my mom can call Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music amazing, or a giant waste of time, or noise or beauty, but to call it a mistake is to completely do disservice to all of the decisionmaking and personal effort that went into the craft of sound into music.

I agree fervently with what you’re saying here and am not casting aspersion on Interpol to the extent that you insinuate. I certainly wouldn't describe Interpol's overall aesthetic as a mistake. I would say I think it's salient or I don't think it's salient. But once the aesthetic is established the listener can make statements about whether particular expressions of that aesthetic abided by its principles or didn't. I say the G# didn't.

In Crap / Not Crap there were curious instances where you’d describe what was appealing about an artist's aesthetic in terms that I would also use but then you'd hold up as exemplary totally different records than I would have chosen. So I'm still puzzling over the whole thing but I will concede that maybe I fight too hard in defense of immutable musical principles--maybe it is all subjective. In fact I deleted the following from the “Frances Farmer” post because I thought it distracted from my main point too much (also ironic because of simultaneous parental appearances):

I played it (Frances Farmer...) for my dad once because of course your family and closest brethren are most sympathetic to your tastes (and no one else I'd played it for understood why that half step killed me so much). While I can't remember his specific reaction I do remember him not "getting" it as much as I'd hoped. Maybe this is because of the aforementioned tendency of music to require a gestational period to reveal itself. But it also just might be a testament to how arbitrary musical taste is.

Whichever "role" you've put Interpol in doesn't mean that they are permanently attached to it (this is a very awkward sentence but I have no better way to rephrase it. I am very tired). You say they're ruly, and then they make songs that are unruly. Maybe you're just wrong? They've only released one album, for chrissakes. Music is doing whatever you want, as long as it's interesting. And that song is interesting. The song itself is more catchy with the "mistake" or "incorrect note choice" or whatever you want to call it- you hear it, remember it, and now we're all talking about it.

It's just very strange, your whole argument seems to negate itself. They intentionally put the note there.; if it was wrong they wouldn't have left it in. It seems as if you're trying to just prove that they don't play it as a G# on the record. They simply haven't put out enough work for you to decide what their aesthetic is. If that changes your preconception of the band, then you probably had the wrong preconceptions in the first place. If they had played the A as they "should have," they would be predictable. If they play the G#, they're being dissonant. Nothing's wrong with either one.

For the record, I don't like Interpol, but just because they're not living up to your idea of them as a band doesn't mean that they make mistakes in their recordings.

Here's Twinkle Twinkle Little Star:

A A E E F# F# E
D D C# C# B B A

Here's another version:

A A E E F# F# E
D D C# C# B B G#

Is this one wrong? Is it interesting?

Alex, the conclusion you should come to is "I'm clearly not going to change other peoples minds. So since I sound retarded defending the exact same point over and over again, and no one is changing, I'll stop."

I don't necessarily agree or disagree. I'm just trying to tell you, you look a bit dumb repeating this whole "G# where there's suppose to be an A" thing.

Chris

Here's Twinkle Twinkle Little Star:

A A E E F# F# E
D D C# C# B B A

Here's another version:

A A E E F# F# E
D D C# C# B B G#

Is this one wrong? Is it interesting?

It is both. It is "wrong" A. because it is a melody that is a familiar, because it has been played repeatedly and B. if the goal was to replicate the song as originally intended by the composer.

It is interesting because, well, that might not be a note that I would have pick to play right there, but there you have it.

But the real point is this: if the original composer had written the melody of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" this way (your second way):

A A E E F# F# E
D D C# C# B B G#

and that was the way that every mother on the planet sang it to their children at night, or every folk-children's music artist recorded it that way, would it still seem "incorrect"?