Andy wrote:

Josef K wrote:

Andy wrote:None of that addressed my point of puzzlement, which was "I don't understand this sort of notion that there is any sort of right to a job."

Who says there is?

Everyone else in the thread who uses phrases like "fear that you may be fired at the end of your shirt" or "no recourse if you get fired."

I don't think anyone is implying that being in a Union renders you immune from being sacked. What is does do, however, is provide you with some assurance that the if you are being sacked it is not being done at the whim of some dodgy employer / manager. That's all that Unions can really do, make sure that there is a framework for dismissal and that if it comes to it the employer has worked through the process properly.

Josef K wrote:some assurance that the if you are being sacked it is not being done at the whim of some dodgy employer / manager.

I guess I don't see it as a problem if you ARE sacked because of a dodgy employer as long as it's not for something that violates yr civil rights. But if your boss wants you out, then you're out, and I don't see that as a bad thing, any more than that the employee can walk out for any reason, too.

At-will goes both ways, and I'm glad.

Andy wrote:

Josef K wrote:some assurance that the if you are being sacked it is not being done at the whim of some dodgy employer / manager.

I guess I don't see it as a problem if you ARE sacked because of a dodgy employer as long as it's not for something that violates yr civil rights. But if your boss wants you out, then you're out, and I don't see that as a bad thing, any more than that the employee can walk out for any reason, too.

At-will goes both ways, and I'm glad.

Depends on the boss' reasons. There is a whole raft of legislation in the UK regarding employment law, this is aimed at protecting employees and employers.

Josef K wrote:Depends on the boss' reasons. There is a whole raft of legislation in the UK regarding employment law, this is aimed at protecting employees and employers.

I'm curious then as to what this legislation would protect against. Again, I'm not talking about something that violates civil rights like "Hey, we just noticed you're a darkie, you're out."

Andy wrote:

Josef K wrote:Depends on the boss' reasons. There is a whole raft of legislation in the UK regarding employment law, this is aimed at protecting employees and employers.

I'm curious then as to what this legislation would protect against. Again, I'm not talking about something that violates civil rights like "Hey, we just noticed you're a darkie, you're out."

You probably won't mind if I refer to you as a technocrat who has never had his job outsourced or threatened by a scab worker, I am guessing.

Andy wrote:

Josef K wrote:Depends on the boss' reasons. There is a whole raft of legislation in the UK regarding employment law, this is aimed at protecting employees and employers.

I'm curious then as to what this legislation would protect against. Again, I'm not talking about something that violates civil rights like "Hey, we just noticed you're a darkie, you're out."

I'm interested in the scenario that you feel it's justifiable to sack someone straight off the bat.

Gross misconduct, yep, bam you're out the door. What else, what other reasons are ok for a boss to sack a worker without notice?

I think what Andy is missing is that unionization is a way for laborers to work under a contract.

Without the union workers who are employed in numbers that render them a sort of human commodity are very weak as individuals relative to negotiation. If a single potential hire comes in and says "ok, here is what I want in my contract" the employer says "contract? are you nuts? NEXT!".

If the workers band together it helps to compensate for the centralized power of the employer. And now they can have a contract. And part of that contract will address the terms of hiring and firing.

So it's not so much the workers have a right to a job. It's that they have a negotiated contract. The "big guys" get to negotiate contracts to their benefit all the time. Why shouldn't the "little guys?"

Andy wrote:I don't understand this sort of notion that there is any sort of right to a job.

You certainly have a "right" to a job if you are more highly trained and experienced. This is what Union labor is offering. Trained, experienced, skilled tradesmen. People who have gone through apprenticeships that can last up to five years depending on your union, while simultaneously attending school to learn their trade, would certainly argue that they have a right to the job over a guy off the street with a bag of tools. Unions also put programs in place to train more minorities. Hard-working middle-lower income workers deserve an opportunity to make a decent living and not have to live in constant fear of losing their job over some bullshit.

The average worker should be able to obtain a decent medical plan through their employer (you're a commodity, after all, albeit a disposable on according to you) so this way if Andy decides to fire me for being overweight, at least I can check myself into a mental hospital.

Unions keep big developers and construction companies in check. That's why the buildings in our union-friendly cities aren't falling down like they are in other countries where there are no labor unions, worker's rights, and therefore no incentive at all to care about quality control and/or craftsmanship.

andy wrote:Why is it a bad thing that an employer can fire you at any time for any reason, or that I can leave an employer at any time for any reason?

You really don't believe this, do you? What would be incentive for you to take this sort of job? The reason you have a job is to generate a steady stream of income that you and your family can depend on. In your world, anytime a boss feels like it, whether it's warranted or not, he/she can send your household into a financial tailspin from which your family may not ever recover. I don't know if you own a house, but if your boss decided that he didn't like your face one day and canned you, it would only take a couple weeks for most middle-class homeowners to be up shit creek. The boss can always replace you, it's much harder for you to find another job.

How about on the job site? Would anyone speak up about anything? Who would report unsafe work conditions or harassment if you were subject to un-checked retribution from your employer? Anyone who doesn't wanna eat, raise your hand! What about compensation? "Broke your leg on the job? Tough shit! You're fired!" With no job security, the average working people of America are forced into an impossible financial situation.

Union members aren't looking for a handout. They are simply looking for a fair shake at a decent quality of life for them and their families. When middle class people can't afford to buy a house or live in the same neighborhood they work in, the economy goes in the shitter and the country as a whole suffers. If you work somewhere for 30 years, you should be able to retire with a pension and not have to worry about feeding your family or defaulting on your home loan.

The majority of these men and women work extremely hard; harder than you probably ever will. I'm not sure if you've ever done any kind of manual labor in your life or if you know how hard it can be, but if you have, I doubt your opinion would be so obtuse and simplified.

If your employer (let's just assume for now that you're not self-employed) walked into your office one day and said: "Andy, I appreciate all the great work you've done for us over the years, but I'm gonna have to go ahead and replace you with this hot chick that I would like to fuck. She's prettier, thinner and doesn't have a penis. Sorry pal. Good luck with the diabetes and those medical bills!" or "I'd love to keep you on, but I just don't feel comfortable around black dudes." is this your idea of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? If not that, how about in the good 'ol interest of fairness? We're not talking about Major League baseball players here. We're talking about the work-a-day men and women of this country who deserve to make a liveable wage and expect a reasonable level of job security.

Salut, Venkman. Well done.

pwalshj wrote:Salut, Venkman. Well done.

Seconded.