Football fans!

Who do you think will win the Champions League this season?

I'm going with Liverpool.

Also, well done Leeds! I hope you stay up, if only because Mark Viduka used to play for you! A glance at your remaining fixtures does not fill me with confidence though. 3 tough games to come. If you can get a point from either the Southampton or Derby games and 3 against Ipswich, who knows?

Nico Adie wrote:Football fans!

Who do you think will win the Champions League this season?

I'm going with Liverpool.

Also, well done Leeds! I hope you stay up, if only because Mark Viduka used to play for you! A glance at your remaining fixtures does not fill me with confidence though. 3 tough games to come. If you can get a point from either the Southampton or Derby games and 3 against Ipswich, who knows?

I'd probably go with Man U but who knows...at least we've definitly got one English team in the final, and possibly/probably 2...all English finale would be brilliant.

It could so easily be Man U - Chelsea- Champions and FA Cup finals, as well as a final of sorts in the premier league when they meet about 3 games before the end of the season but I suppose with goal difference Man U will still be a point up on them even if Chelsea grab a win there.

sphincter wrote:...all English finale would be brilliant.

Meh. The fact that we're probably looking at Chelsea/Man U games to decide most competitions involving English clubs depresses the hell out of me - and makes the use of the word "competition" seem less and less tenable. If you support either of these teams, then fantastic - for the rest of us, it's killing the game.

Until relatively recently, teams like Man U would respond to complaints about their sustained dominance by saying "raise your game" to other clubs, but they no longer do. Why? Because even a champion whinger like Ferguson knows that it's no longer enough for some club to have a canny manager, a couple of good buys, a handful of talented academy successes and a bit of cash to spend. What is required now to compete is massive re-financing.

Oh, the excitement!

Dudley wrote:

sphincter wrote:...all English finale would be brilliant.

Meh. The fact that we're probably looking at Chelsea/Man U games to decide most competitions involving English clubs depresses the hell out of me - and makes the use of the word "competition" seem less and less tenable. If you support either of these teams, then fantastic - for the rest of us, it's killing the game.

Until relatively recently, teams like Man U would respond to complaints about their sustained dominance by saying "raise your game" to other clubs, but they no longer do. Why? Because even a champion whinger like Ferguson knows that it's no longer enough for some club to have a canny manager, a couple of good buys, a handful of talented academy successes and a bit of cash to spend. What is required now to compete is massive re-financing.

Oh, the excitement!

I think it's good for English football to dominate in Europe, it sends a message to the Italian and Spanish teams that our teams can beat anyone- our league gets ripped on by other countries for being inferior to them, well this tears that apart.

I don't think it's killing the game at all, teams like Liverpool (before the buy-out), Everton, Portsmouth (I know they got cash but they certainly don't have an all-star team) etc are better than they've been in a long time, Arsenal are about to blow up, perhaps next year, who can call the Premierships winner next year?

I understand your comment about money, but I don't understand your comment about Alex Ferguson?

He's done exactly what you've described.

He's a canny manager who's made a few good buys(recently)- Rooney and Ronaldo etc and encouraged the academy to bring up some great players. May I add that Ronaldo has become ten times better since he joined United, they've transformed him from a show-boating tit to one of the best players on the planet. Look at the squad- a lot of them weren't big names at all when they joined United, Scholes and Giggs got their names at United, players like O'Shea, Richardson and Fletcher aren't big names.

You compare the United squad man for man to Chelsea and it's shocking. Teams like United and Arsenal buy some big names of course, but they search high and low for young talent to develop players and develop squads to propell the future of Football. Chelsea, although a brilliant team in most senses are generally buying the biggest names in their positions, established players, many of whom spend half the seaon on the bench. Their sub-squad are probably worth the same as Uniteds first team, bar Ronaldo who's probably worth something stupid like 60mil...and Rooney.

Sorry for bumming United, I'm not a supporter, I just understand that they're an amazing team and deserve to be and Alex Ferguson is probably the best manager of all time, whinger or not.

The more strong teams in the Premiership the better for me. Liverpool, United, Chelsea and Arsenal could beat any team on the planet.

sphincter wrote:Liverpool, United, Chelsea and Arsenal could beat any team on the planet.

As evidenced by PSV beating Arsenal in the first knockout stage of the Champions League.

I agree with the rest of your point though. Man U, as much as I dislike them (Liverpool are my English team), have spent far less than Chelsea. I think Michael Carrick was their only big signing last summer. Could be wrong though. I'd much rather watch Man U play than Chelsea, that's for sure.

sphincter wrote: I think it's good for English football to dominate in Europe, it sends a message to the Italian and Spanish teams that our teams can beat anyone- our league gets ripped on by other countries for being inferior to them, well this tears that apart.

I don't think it's killing the game at all, teams like Liverpool (before the buy-out), Everton, Portsmouth (I know they got cash but they certainly don't have an all-star team) etc are better than they've been in a long time, Arsenal are about to blow up, perhaps next year, who can call the Premierships winner next year?

I understand your comment about money, but I don't understand your comment about Alex Ferguson?

He's done exactly what you've described.

He's a canny manager who's made a few good buys(recently)- Rooney and Ronaldo etc and encouraged the academy to bring up some great players. May I add that Ronaldo has become ten times better since he joined United, they've transformed him from a show-boating tit to one of the best players on the planet. Look at the squad- a lot of them weren't big names at all when they joined United, Scholes and Giggs got their names at United, players like O'Shea, Richardson and Fletcher aren't big names.

You compare the United squad man for man to Chelsea and it's shocking. Teams like United and Arsenal buy some big names of course, but they search high and low for young talent to develop players and develop squads to propell the future of Football. Chelsea, although a brilliant team in most senses are generally buying the biggest names in their positions, established players, many of whom spend half the seaon on the bench. Their sub-squad are probably worth the same as Uniteds first team, bar Ronaldo who's probably worth something stupid like 60mil...and Rooney.

Sorry for bumming United, I'm not a supporter, I just understand that they're an amazing team and deserve to be and Alex Ferguson is probably the best manager of all time, whinger or not.

The more strong teams in the Premiership the better for me. Liverpool, United, Chelsea and Arsenal could beat any team on the planet.

Fair points, well made!

I wasn't having a go at United, or at Ferguson (bar calling him a whinger, which wasn't really central to my argment) and for me, as City fan, that's quite an achievement. I just think it's crushing for football that nowadays teams can only compete in the table if they can compete in financing (most of which looks completely precarious and unsustainable in even the short term). I know that there has always been a strong element of this - it would be naive to think otherwise - but in the last couple of years it has been truly impossible for smaller clubs to make it into the top three over a season, let alone win. No matter how good the manager is.

I agree that Ferguson is probably one of the best managers of all time - if not the best. But he is undeniably a whinger who frequently seems to make out that it's really difficult being Man Utd. I'm sure it's stressful, and it was genuinely very difficult early on his tenure, but come on. Don't forget, this is the man who once accused MOTD - at a time when everyone who wasn't a Utd fan was sick of seing them every week - of "following Utd around the country, waiting for them to fail".

But you can't really divorce what he's achieved as a manager from what Edwards, Kenyon et al achieved in branding and financing the club in the 90's - "branding" was a hilarous notion when they first started bandying it about, while now it's considered as a given. Sure Chelsea have spent more in the last three/four years, but don't forget Veron, Ferdinand etc. United's spending dwarfed that of any other English club for season after season. Why did Kenyon go to Chelsea? Because Abramovich saw what he'd done at United, and because Kenyon saw that his work was pretty much done at United - there wasn't anywhere higher to take the club.

I'm not blaming Utd for it. But you can't ignore it.

As far as ending out a message to Italian and Spanish sides - if you look at the last 15 years, there's been a surge of cash working its way around European football, attracting financiers and overseas players and managers alike. Italian football was the best for a bit, then la liga and now, supposedly us. It hasn't done our national side a great deal of good, it's syphoning off our most promising young players to rot on the bench for a kings ransom in the massive squads of the uber-clubs, and it's killing interest in the game at club level, with attendances plummeting, and from watching Italy and Spain, it's a safe bet the money will move on. That's what money does.

Nico Adie wrote:

sphincter wrote:Liverpool, United, Chelsea and Arsenal could beat any team on the planet.

As evidenced by PSV beating Arsenal in the first knockout stage of the Champions League.

I agree with the rest of your point though. Man U, as much as I dislike them (Liverpool are my English team), have spent far less than Chelsea. I think Michael Carrick was their only big signing last summer. Could be wrong though. I'd much rather watch Man U play than Chelsea, that's for sure.

I didn't say these teams 'can't be beaten' by any team on the planet I said they 'could beat anyone' on the planet. Arsenal have lost against some terrible teams this year. Man United were beaten by West-Ham who have been awful all season, the same for all of them. That doen't change the fact that they can all beat anyone, I believe on a consistent basis. Arsenal are still in this developmental funk but they should come out of it any time now and will dominate. I personally think on their day, they're the best team on the planet.

I guess Liverpool are my premiership team too due to my kids but I actually support Plymouth...sort of!

sphincter wrote:I don't think it's killing the game at all, teams like Liverpool (before the buy-out), Everton, Portsmouth (I know they got cash but they certainly don't have an all-star team) etc are better than they've been in a long time, Arsenal are about to blow up, perhaps next year, who can call the Premierships winner next year?

PLAY UP POMPEY - POMPEY PLAY UP!





Sorry for that. Haven't chipped into this thread before.

Dudley wrote:

sphincter wrote: I think it's good for English football to dominate in Europe, it sends a message to the Italian and Spanish teams that our teams can beat anyone- our league gets ripped on by other countries for being inferior to them, well this tears that apart.

I don't think it's killing the game at all, teams like Liverpool (before the buy-out), Everton, Portsmouth (I know they got cash but they certainly don't have an all-star team) etc are better than they've been in a long time, Arsenal are about to blow up, perhaps next year, who can call the Premierships winner next year?

I understand your comment about money, but I don't understand your comment about Alex Ferguson?

He's done exactly what you've described.

He's a canny manager who's made a few good buys(recently)- Rooney and Ronaldo etc and encouraged the academy to bring up some great players. May I add that Ronaldo has become ten times better since he joined United, they've transformed him from a show-boating tit to one of the best players on the planet. Look at the squad- a lot of them weren't big names at all when they joined United, Scholes and Giggs got their names at United, players like O'Shea, Richardson and Fletcher aren't big names.

You compare the United squad man for man to Chelsea and it's shocking. Teams like United and Arsenal buy some big names of course, but they search high and low for young talent to develop players and develop squads to propell the future of Football. Chelsea, although a brilliant team in most senses are generally buying the biggest names in their positions, established players, many of whom spend half the seaon on the bench. Their sub-squad are probably worth the same as Uniteds first team, bar Ronaldo who's probably worth something stupid like 60mil...and Rooney.

Sorry for bumming United, I'm not a supporter, I just understand that they're an amazing team and deserve to be and Alex Ferguson is probably the best manager of all time, whinger or not.

The more strong teams in the Premiership the better for me. Liverpool, United, Chelsea and Arsenal could beat any team on the planet.

Fair points, well made!

I wasn't having a go at United, or at Ferguson (bar calling him a whinger, which wasn't really central to my argment) and for me, as City fan, that's quite an achievement. I just think it's crushing for football that nowadays teams can only compete in the table if they can compete in financing (most of which looks completely precarious and unsustainable in even the short term). I know that there has always been a strong element of this - it would be naive to think otherwise - but in the last couple of years it has been truly impossible for smaller clubs to make it into the top three over a season, let alone win. No matter how good the manager is.

I agree that Ferguson is probably one of the best managers of all time - if not the best. But he is undeniably a whinger who frequently seems to make out that it's really difficult being Man Utd. I'm sure it's stressful, and it was genuinely very difficult early on his tenure, but come on. Don't forget, this is the man who once accused MOTD - at a time when everyone who wasn't a Utd fan was sick of seing them every week - of "following Utd around the country, waiting for them to fail".

But you can't really divorce what he's achieved as a manager from what Edwards, Kenyon et al achieved in branding and financing the club in the 90's - "branding" was a hilarous notion when they first started bandying it about, while now it's considered as a given. Sure Chelsea have spent more in the last three/four years, but don't forget Veron, Ferdinand etc. United's spending dwarfed that of any other English club for season after season. Why did Kenyon go to Chelsea? Because Abramovich saw what he'd done at United, and because Kenyon saw that his work was pretty much done at United - there wasn't anywhere higher to take the club.

I'm not blaming Utd for it. But you can't ignore it.

As far as ending out a message to Italian and Spanish sides - if you look at the last 15 years, there's been a surge of cash working its way around European football, attracting financiers and overseas players and managers alike. Italian football was the best for a bit, then la liga and now, supposedly us. It hasn't done our national side a great deal of good, it's syphoning off our most promising young players to rot on the bench for a kings ransom in the massive squads of the uber-clubs, and it's killing interest in the game at club level, with attendances plummeting, and from watching Italy and Spain, it's a safe bet the money will move on. That's what money does.

Ahhh, you're a city fan.

Yeah, the top four spots are generally set, but football has been this way for some time, but you're right, it has got worse. Yet teams like Reading can come in and flip it a bit, I know they're in no danger of touching the top 4 spots, but they're helping to prove the point that football isn't just about throwing money at things (although these days it's a huge part of it). West-Ham at the other end have done a U-turn and fallen apart with their new money and bad choices. Maybe Tevez will go to City! I'd like to see him at Liverpool but that's a different matter.

I disagree about Ferguson, I don't think he's too bad of a moaner. If you compare him to the rest. They all moan too much. Anyway you could be right, you may have seen more interview footage with him than me.

I'm also aware of past spending at United, and obviously they've had the money so they're going to do it, but I think they've balanced it quite well with searching for new talent and training up young players. I think they take good players and make them much better, a lot of clubs don't.

The money situation is a bit of a quick-sand set-up, it's hard to get out of, but teams do start to surface over periods of years sometimes. Newcastle will be back in the race next season, teams like them and Everton could hurt the big teams if they get some of the good fortune they deserve.
The message to Europe is purely because of the criticism that the English league has recieved, and the money is still in Italy and Spain, and their teams are still doing well, AC Milan are still in The Champions league and they're in it year after year, Inter are unbeaten in the league I believe.

I agree about our national Team, but that blame can't purely be put on the players can it? There's clearly enough quality there. I'm not a fan of the manager personally but there must be other problems there, it's a bit of a mystery. It's a shame teams like City sell players like Wright-Phillips, I'm sure more often than not it's because they have to but sometimes it feels like it's just a way of making a quick buck that ends up biting them in the bum in the long run. If Sean had stayed at City he would have played every game of the season and would have developed into an even better player than he is, which is potentially amazing. Could Everton have afforded to keep Rooney? If so they'd probably be in Arsenals position right now.

Damn your reasoned sensible responses, sir! Damn 'em all to hell!

The only possible quibble would be about the quality of the current England side. We have no players playing abroad (bar Hargreaves), no managers either (and precious few at home), very few players who would realistically make the team week in week out for non-English sides, and we seem to contiinue to be hamstrung by this Lampard/Gerrard problem, because we lack talented versatile midfielders. We've got loads of potential, but either they don't get games for their sides, or they're hoofing around route-one balls in clumsy relegation battle