With our current supreme court nominee this is an especially relevant issue, huh?
If the pro-lifers were also pro-condoms in school, pro-explicit sexual education starting in around 7th grade, and pro-gay adoption and marriage, I'd give them some credibility. They are not which exposes them as morons.
Wait, not morons - totally fucked up stupid fucking amoral goddamned morons.
Same thing as being anti-gay - it has been proven time and time again (by Catholic preists alone) that you cannot restrict sexuality, not successfully, anyways. If you are born gay, you are going to seek out gay sex in some form. If you're made to be ashamed about being gay you're going to do it in a secretive (and almost definitely less-healthy to yourself and others) manner. Likewise kids are going to have sex and if they haven't been tought what happens, how, why, and how to control that then they are going to get pregnant.
Against abortion, alright, we've got a 15 year old who doesn't want their kid and will not be able to provide for it, let's put that kid up for adoption - you know who would LOVE to adopt that kid, will be able to provide for it, and give it a loving home? How about a gay couple? Shoot, let them get married and you've got a regular old family. Oh, wait, you beleive it's a sin to be gay? Okay let's have that 15 year old girl stuff their kid in a garbage can and have the gays ashamed and embarrased having secretive relationships with prostitutes or strangers.......
ABORTION
43geiginni wrote:My greatest argument for legal and freely available abortion is that humans are inherently fucked as far as self-limiting population is concerned. ...
mr. geginni,
i couldn't let this go another year without responding...
are you saying that global overpopulation is your primary concern and we should use abortion to help solve this problem?
or
are you saying that abortion is not a problem? it doesn't lead to overpopulation... ("which btw is a great big problem. allow me to elaborate..." at which point our eyes glaze over, tmh compliments your logic, and we forget what we were arguing about in the first place.)
If I was to start a religion or 'movement' it would be based on this simple concept of self-limiting/population control.
my point: one can advocate many many things in the name of limiting population! (the death penalty, war, food and drug deregulation, pauly shore movies...) if you started this religion, then well, you know how that story ends. next thing you know you're engaged to katie holmes and making kool-aid with the polyphonic spree.
to a pro-lifer, abortion and stem cell research are equitable to the indiscriminate killing of babies. talking about overpopulation won't convince them otherwise. at best it's a diversion.
ABORTION
44I do not totally concur with steve's assertion that nothing "illuminating" can come from a moral discussion on EA forums. The fact that so many differing arguments are presented in favour of an against abortion provides a clearer picture of personal reaction toward what is, in practice, a painful and traumatic process.
Sentience is no criterion, as human children may not become self aware for months after birth, and many humans are unable to communicate their self awareness (for example, a sufferer of encephalitis lethargica.)
As for whether an abortion legally constitutes murder, most legal bodies in secular societies recognize the distinction between murder and abortion through the justification of the act, which relies squarely on the decision of the woman carrying the child.
Pregnancy term length as a criterion is more a medical consideration than an ethical one. There is a far greater chance of harm being caused to the mother after the second trimester. Medically, the consensus has been that the life of the mother is of far greater significance than the life of the child, both psychologically and physically.
The issue which seems to not have been addressed in any detail here is the harm caused to the mother. Abortion is no stroll in the park. I know/have known four women who have had abortions. The emotional and psychological stress for two of these women was almost more than they could bear; they frequently talked of suicide. Once a woman has had an abortion, it can greatly reduce her childbearing ability in the future. Women generally aren't crazy about having an abortion.
I am of the opinion that abortion should be readily available to women, though it should be strongly discouraged (as most practitioners of abortions will generally agree.)
Pro-lifers want the child to be born; pro-choicers want to preserve the health of the mother. There seems to be a simple solution here. In cases where abortion is being undertaken out of psychological reasons, or out of financial situation, rather than a purely medical reason, the mother should be allowed to visit a pro-life adoption centre, where pro-lifers can adopt all the unwanted children of this world and take care of them.
But who wants that responsibility? No one, it seems.
This said, the notion of a "secular society" needs to be address in the american federal government. Particularly when they seem to espouse its virtues as a justification to overthrow "despotic" and "tyrannical" governments of the Third World. Church. State. See! It's not that hard.
Sentience is no criterion, as human children may not become self aware for months after birth, and many humans are unable to communicate their self awareness (for example, a sufferer of encephalitis lethargica.)
As for whether an abortion legally constitutes murder, most legal bodies in secular societies recognize the distinction between murder and abortion through the justification of the act, which relies squarely on the decision of the woman carrying the child.
Pregnancy term length as a criterion is more a medical consideration than an ethical one. There is a far greater chance of harm being caused to the mother after the second trimester. Medically, the consensus has been that the life of the mother is of far greater significance than the life of the child, both psychologically and physically.
The issue which seems to not have been addressed in any detail here is the harm caused to the mother. Abortion is no stroll in the park. I know/have known four women who have had abortions. The emotional and psychological stress for two of these women was almost more than they could bear; they frequently talked of suicide. Once a woman has had an abortion, it can greatly reduce her childbearing ability in the future. Women generally aren't crazy about having an abortion.
I am of the opinion that abortion should be readily available to women, though it should be strongly discouraged (as most practitioners of abortions will generally agree.)
Pro-lifers want the child to be born; pro-choicers want to preserve the health of the mother. There seems to be a simple solution here. In cases where abortion is being undertaken out of psychological reasons, or out of financial situation, rather than a purely medical reason, the mother should be allowed to visit a pro-life adoption centre, where pro-lifers can adopt all the unwanted children of this world and take care of them.
But who wants that responsibility? No one, it seems.
This said, the notion of a "secular society" needs to be address in the american federal government. Particularly when they seem to espouse its virtues as a justification to overthrow "despotic" and "tyrannical" governments of the Third World. Church. State. See! It's not that hard.
Toby Baldwin
Soul Ranch Leichhardt
Soul Ranch Leichhardt
ABORTION
45soul_rancher wrote:I do not totally concur with steve's assertion that nothing "illuminating" can come from a moral discussion on EA forums.
Actually I agree with Steve, "serious" debate on any web-forum is about as useful and pleasurable as masturbating with a cheese-grater.
No one here will have changed their mind. I for one am pro-abortion and I doubt anything I could say will change anyone’s mind on the matter and there is nothing anyone else can say that will change my mind…
Personally I’m going to boycott these pointless threads from now on and I encourage likeminded others to do the same. Most of us hang around EA to kill a bit of time at work and chat about geeky-guitar bands, recording and our favourite cheeses. Make mine a Manchego!
