Al Qaeda attacks documented

41
galanter wrote:
NerblyBear wrote:Well, I'll go ahead and formulate the question that was implicit anyway: If the administration's goals in the war have nothing to do with fighting terrorism, then why should we justify such a patently illegal and unethical operation?


We are both repeating ourselves at this point.

I believe the administration's goals are exactly fighting terrorism. The first round in this recent war was taking down the Taliban and exterminating al Qaeda in Afghanistan, and there was no oil to be had there.

I disagree that in the big picture using force to fight terrorists is either illegal or unethical. It's self-defense, and self-defense is a long accepted activity.

There may be individual incidents long the way that are illegal or unethical...rapes, tortures, intentional and avoidable killing of civilians...these should be punished and seem to come with every war...some degree of criminality exists in any collection of humans.

But these lesser crimes do not change the big picture. There are terrorists who work everyday to find a way to kill *you*...and I think killing them first is a fine idea.


The individual incidents were part of a chain that began with the major unethical incident: the entrance into an illegal war in the first place. All of these incidents, such as rapes and tortures, are the responsibility of this administration for its decision to engage in the war in the first place. If the initial motivation for the war were just--say, if Saddam actually
did represent a threat to the U.S., or if he actually were in cahoots with Al Qaeda, both of which are false--then I can see how we should try as hard as we can to hold individual parties responsible. But, for instance, if executives at Ford Motors make the decision to fabricate cars that are dangerous, we hold them accountable instead of the people who actually fabricate the parts in the factory. Same thing applies in this case.

Again, we agree about capturing and killing terrorists. No disagreement here. What we disagree about is the systematic destruction of entire nations' infrastructures--such as those of Afghanistan and Iraq--that are motivated by greed and not by the desire to protect Americans.

If the administration had wanted to protect Americans from further terrorism, they should have cooperated with international police forces to find and liquidate specific terrorist cells instead of doing what they actually did: palpably use "terrorism" as nothing more than a smokescreen for the intentions of huge oil companies to net huge profits. The eradication of the Taliban in Afghanistan is something I actually applaud the administration for undertaking; however, looking back after the fact, we can see it as the first step towards a completely unrelated goal: the destruction of Iraq. Hence, the motivation behind the destruction of the Taliban starts to seem a bit fishy.

As a result of such unconscionable behavior, the entire civilized world detests our administration and many more terrorist cells are proliferating like pimples on the face of a pubescent teenager.

Your entire argument, galanter, comes down to this: "I believe that what the administration is doing is stopping terrorists and protecting Americans." You are resting all of your erroneous assumptions on faith in a group of criminals that happen to seem legitimate because they wear fancy suits and they work in the White House. The rest of us, who are more informed about the actual breed of characters who always work in the White House, are much more skeptical, and, hence, in a much better position to understand the truth.

I think that if you were to allow yourself for one minute to doubt the stated intentions of this administration, significant results would follow for your understanding of geo-political events. The problem is that when, as in your case, a fictional world-view is so comforting and reassuring, why would anybody want to allow it to be undermined by pesky doubts and criticisms?

Al Qaeda attacks documented

42
galanter wrote:We all long for "peace in our time."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_in_our_time


Psst.

Out of something resembling historical consistency and intellectual honesty, can you please keep your rhetorical hands off of WWII until you understand it? Or at least until you have listened to, absorbed and reflected on the words of the guy who won it? That'd be great, thanks.

Ike's exit interview contains many themes that somehow don't get a lot of attention from today's Republicans. Here are some:

President Dwight Eisenhower, on his way out of office and with nothing left to lose in 1961 wrote:
Crises there will continue to be. In meeting them, whether foreign or domestic, great or small, there is a recurring temptation to feel that some spectacular and costly action could become the miraculous solution to all current difficulties. ...

But each proposal must be weighed in the light of a broader consideration: the need to maintain balance in and among national programs, balance between the private and the public economy, balance between the cost and hoped for advantages, balance between the clearly necessary and the comfortably desirable, balance between our essential requirements as a nation and the duties imposed by the nation upon the individual, balance between actions of the moment and the national welfare of the future....

We have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security alone more than the net income of all United States corporations.

Now this conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual --is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources, and livelihood are all involved. So is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.



Phil, I'm going to stop right there and ask what you think of the phrase "sought or unsought".

Because that doesn't really work with your glib worldview, does it? Unsought influence?

What do you think D-Day's architect knew about the military, congress and industry that you don't?

Because he refers to something completely absent from your positions: an acknowledgement that lies become institutionalized, amplified and industrialized thereby becoming instruments of mass murder.

He's saying that the prevailing corporate ethos animates and lubricates the worst elements in society without even trying.

You, on the other hand chirp things like "I believe the administration's exact goals are fighting terrorism."

You really, really need to drop the jingo routine and take a harder look at what you're paying for with each paycheck. The world in which you live and its elevated standard of living is to a great degree made of the fruit's of Eisenhower's labor, yet you ignore his nuanced and profound first-hand observations at every turn.

This is ungrateful. As well as disingenuous, authoritarian, naiive and pretty dangerous in a crisis.

-r
Last edited by warmowski_Archive on Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Al Qaeda attacks documented

43
Galanter, I'd like to see if you could fit these facts into your ultra-narrow worldview: From ZMag.Org online:

From the UN, by Stephen Zunes:

President George W. Bush's address before the United Nations General Assembly on September 19 appeared to be designed for the domestic U.S. audience. Indeed, few of the foreign delegations or international journalists present could take seriously his rhetoric regarding the promotion of democracy in the Middle East, given the reality of U.S. policy in the region.



"This morning, I want to speak about the more hopeful world that is within our reach, a world beyond terror, where ordinary men and women are free to determine their own destiny, where the voices of moderation are empowered, and where the extremists are marginalized by the peaceful majority. This world can be ours if we seek it and if we work together."



Under President Bush, the United States has seriously undermined the ability of the international community to work together to empower voices of moderation and marginalize extremists. For example, the Bush administration has gone to great efforts to undermine the International Criminal Court, which could play a critical role in bringing to justice extremists responsible for crimes against humanity. Similarly, with bipartisan support in Congress, the Bush administration attacked the International Court of Justice for its landmark 2004 ruling on the obligations of signatories to enforce the Fourth Geneva Convention. The United States, the world's number one arms supplier, has also blocked UN efforts to curb the trade in small arms used by terrorists. Currently, the United States sends more arms and security assistance than any other country to autocratic regimes and other violators of universally recognized human rights in the Middle East and elsewhere.



"Recently a courageous group of Arab and Muslim intellectuals wrote me a letter. In it, they said this: 'The shore of reform is the only one on which any lights appear, even though the journey demands courage and patience and perseverance.' ... Together we must support the dreams of good and decent people who are working to transform a troubled region ..."



What President Bush failed to mention is that that letter, in which 90 of the region's most prominent intellectuals called on President Bush "to reaffirm -- in words and actions -- America's commitment to sustained democratic reform in the Arab world" also stated that it "is our belief that the main problem with U.S. policies in the Middle East (in particular in Iraq, Palestine, and elsewhere) is precisely their failure to live up to America's democratic ideals of liberty and justice for all." The letter also called on President Bush to "break with 60 years of U.S. support for non-democratic regimes in the region, and to make that known to the world in unequivocal terms" and "to press for an end to regime repression of democratically spirited liberal and Islamist groups, and to emphatically distance itself from such repression and condemn it in the strongest terms whenever and wherever it occurs." There is no indication that the Bush administration intends to change its policies, however.



"Some of the changes in the Middle East are happening gradually, but they are real ... The United Arab Emirates recently announced that half of the seats in its Federal National Council will be chosen by elections. Kuwait held elections in which women were allowed to vote and run for office for the first time. Citizens have voted in municipal elections in Saudi Arabia, in parliamentary elections in Jordan and Bahrain, and in multiparty presidential elections in Yemen and Egypt. These are important steps ..."



None of the "elections" that President Bush mentioned is very real or important.



The Federal National Council in the United Arab Emirates serves only as an advisory body. All political power rests in the Supreme Council of Rulers, which consists of the seven dynastic emirs of the federation's emirates.



In Kuwait, in which only 15% of the country's population has voting rights, the royal family largely sets the policy agenda, dominates the country's politics, and controls any real political power. The unelected emir appoints the prime minister and cabinet, and the royal family holds virtually all key posts and can dissolve the parliament at will for years at a time, as it has done twice in recent decades.



Only men are allowed to vote in Saudi Arabia and only for half the seats in municipal councils. There is no constitution, no national legislature, and no political parties. The royal family exclusively wields political power in conjunction with input from the unelected ultra-conservative Islamic ulema. Torture, extra-judicial killings, and severe restrictions on freedom of expression are commonplace.



Few consider the most recent Jordanian elections for the lower house of parliament fair, due to the highly unrepresentative drawing of assembly districts in favor of the monarchy as well as restrictions on the political platforms parties can advocate in order to take part. In any case, the elected lower house cannot initiate legislation and cannot enact laws without the approval of the upper house, which is appointed by the king. The king can also dissolve parliament at will, as he did between 2001 and 2003 without any apparent objections from the Bush administration.



Though a more open society than neighboring Saudi Arabia, Bahrain's most recent parliamentary elections were boycotted by leftists and leading Shiite groups due to electoral gerrymandering and restrictions on political campaigning. The king -- who comes from the country's Sunni minority -- has ultimate control over the executive, legislative, and judicial branches.



Around the forthcoming presidential elections in Yemen, the government and police have been openly pushing for the incumbent's re-election amid widespread allegations of voter intimidation, ballot-rigging, vote-buying, and registration fraud. Just two days before the vote, President Ali Abdullah Saleh -- who has held power for 28 years and claimed victory in the last election by 94% of the vote -- announced the arrest on "terrorist" charges of a campaign official of his leading opponent.



Last year's presidential elections in Egypt were even worse than Yemen's in that the U.S.-backed Mubarak regime declared the largest opposition party illegal, effectively banned independent candidates, severely restricted media access and publication rights of opposition campaigns, and refused to allow international observers. Only 23% of the electorate bothered to go to the polls, and Mubarak won re-election with an improbable 88% of the vote. Government security forces beat up and arrested protestors demanding more open elections, and the runner up in the presidential race received a five-year jail sentence.



Perhaps the freest elections in the Arab world last year took place in Lebanon and the Palestinian territories. Within months, however, the United States backed Israeli attacks on these nations that killed hundreds of civilians and caused billions of dollars worth of damage to their civilian infrastructure -- an indication of how the United States really feels about free elections.



"Some have argued that the democratic changes we're seeing in the Middle East are destabilizing the region. This argument rests on a false assumption, that the Middle East was stable to begin with. The reality is that the stability we thought we saw in the Middle East was a mirage."



This is a terribly misleading characterization of the administration's critics:



First of all, the Middle East has not been seen as a stable part of the world since well before the fall of the Ottoman Empire. For many decades, outside observers have widely recognized the serious ongoing conflicts in that region. There was no "mirage" here.



More importantly, virtually no one argues that the very limited democratic changes in recent years have destabilized the region. Instead, critics of U.S. policy note correctly that the region has been destabilized by the U.S. invasion of Iraq, the large-scale killings of civilians in U.S. military operations, and other U.S. violations of international law and national sovereignty.



"For decades, millions of men and women in the region have been trapped in oppression and hopelessness. And these conditions left a generation disillusioned, and made this region a breeding ground for extremism. Imagine what it's like to be a young person living in a country that is not moving toward reform: ... you have been fed propaganda and conspiracy theories that blame others for your country's shortcomings. And everywhere you turn, you hear extremists who tell you that you can escape your misery and regain your dignity through violence and terror and martyrdom. For many across the broader Middle East, this is the dismal choice presented every day."



The observation that having so many people "trapped in oppression" creates "a breeding ground for extremism" is quite valid. But the most dangerous extremists in the region have come from among Saudis, Egyptians, and Palestinians, all of whom have been victims of political repression by governments backed by the United States. And while extremists do cynically manipulate those suffering under such oppression into supporting their dangerous ideology and tactics, both the ongoing Israeli occupation and the control of a number of other Middle Eastern governments by autocratic rulers is made possible in large part by U.S. military, economic, and diplomatic support. The effected populations already widely recognize this reality, and it is the primary cause of anti-American terrorism.



"To the people of Lebanon: Last year, you inspired the world when you came out into the streets to demand your independence from Syrian dominance. You drove Syrian forces from your country and you reestablished democracy. Since then, you have been tested by the fighting that began with Hezbollah's unprovoked attacks on Israel. Many of you have seen your homes and communities caught in crossfire ... The United Nations has passed a good resolution that has authorized an international force, led by France and Italy, to help you restore Lebanese sovereignty over Lebanese soil."



This outreach to the Lebanese people is disingenuous on several fronts. First of all, the United States initially supported Syria's military intervention into Lebanon in 1976 and their consolidation of power in 1990. Second, Israel planned its assault in close consultation with the Bush administration long before Hezbollah's July 12 attack on an Israeli border post. Third, Lebanese homes and communities were not "caught in crossfire" but were victims of massive bombings and shelling by the U.S.-supplied Israeli armed forces, the vast majority of which were many miles from any Hezbollah military activity. Fourth, the United States repeatedly delayed and then ultimately weakened the UN Security Council resolution authorizing an international force.



"To the people of Iran: The United States respects you; we respect your country ... The United Nations has passed a clear resolution requiring that the regime in Tehran meet its international obligations. Iran must abandon its nuclear weapons ambitions ... We're working toward a diplomatic solution to this crisis. And as we do, we look to the day when you can live in freedom -- and America and Iran can be good friends and close partners in the cause of peace."



Given that the United States was responsible for the coup that overthrew Iran's last democratic government back in 1953 and subsequently backed the Shah's brutal dictatorial regime for a quarter century, platitudes regarding respect for the people of Iran and hope that they may live in freedom do not carry much weight. Indeed, though Iran's electoral process is seriously flawed on many levels, elections there have tended to be freer and more representative than those in the seven U.S.-backed regimes praised by President Bush.



Regarding Iran's alleged nuclear weapons ambitions, the UN Security Council has indeed passed a resolution requiring Iranian compliance with the unusually strict safeguards demanded by the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). However, President Bush has shown little regard for the enforcement of other UN Security Council resolutions regarding nuclear issues. For example, the United States has not only blocked enforcement of UN Security Council resolution 1172 requiring Pakistan and India to eliminate their nuclear weapons arsenals but President Bush has also signed a nuclear cooperation agreement with India and has announced the sale of sophisticated nuclear-capable jet fighter-bombers to Pakistan. In addition, the United States has blocked enforcement of UN Security Council resolution 487 requiring Israel to place its nuclear facilities under the trusteeship of the IAEA and has continued to provide Israel with nuclear-capable jets and missiles.



Finally, given the Bush administration's rejection of Iranian diplomatic overtures, its lack of support for European diplomatic initiatives, and widespread reports of Pentagon preparations for a U.S. military assault on Iran, there are serious questions as to whether the Bush administration is really "working toward a diplomatic solution to this crisis."



"To the people of Syria: ... Today your rulers have allowed your country to become a crossroad for terrorism. In your midst, Hamas and Hezbollah are working to destabilize the region, and your government is turning your country into a tool of Iran. This is increasing your country's isolation from the world. Your government must choose a better way forward by ending its support for terror, and living in peace with your neighbors, and opening the way to a better life for you and your families."



While the Syrian regime certainly does not have clean hands, that country is hardly a "crossroad of terrorism." Few governments, for example, have been more helpful to the United States in the struggle against al-Qaida. Syria has also ended support of the Kurdish PKK.



The political wing of Hamas has offices in Damascus, as it does in a number of other Arab capitals. But their military operations are based in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, not Syria. Similarly, Hamas's financial support has traditionally come from the U.S.-backed monarchies of the Arabian Peninsula, not Syria. In addition, Syria has long ceased its once-active support for leftist Palestinian groups guilty of a series of terrorist attacks in the 1970s.



Syria has substantially reduced its ties with Hezbollah, which had not attacked Israeli civilians for well over a decade until Israel began attacking Lebanese civilians on July 12. Similarly, Hezbollah ended its attacks on Israelis when Israel ceased its attacks on Lebanese. Indeed, the European Union and most governments do not characterize Hezbollah as a terrorist group anymore.



No educated observer sees Syria, with its strong tradition of Arab nationalism, as "a tool of Iran." Ironically, Bush administration officials have recently been claiming that Syria was backing Sunni Iraqi factions fighting Iranian-backed Shiite Iraqi factions.



And rather than refusing to "live in peace with your neighbors," Syria has offered a peace treaty and full diplomatic relations with Israel in return for its withdrawal from Syrian territory seized in the 1967 war. The current Israeli government has refused to consider such a proposal, however, with no apparent objections from the Bush administration.



Finally, Syria is hardly isolated from the world, having recently signed trade deals with Russia, Turkey, and the European Union and having won election just a few years ago to a non-permanent seat on the UN Security Council.



"I'm committed to two democratic states -- Israel and Palestine -- living side-by-side in peace and security. I'm committed to a Palestinian state that has territorial integrity and will live peacefully with the Jewish state of Israel ... Yet extremists in the region are stirring up hatred and trying to prevent these moderate voices from prevailing. "



This is a good and important vision. But -- as with President Bush's visions of a democratic Middle East -- his actual policies tell a very different story.



In endorsing Israeli Prime Minister's Ehud Olmert's "convergence plan," President Bush has demonstrated he is not really interested in a viable Palestinian state existing alongside Israel. The Israeli government, with the support of the Bush administration and a large bipartisan majority in Congress, appears ready to annex large swathes of occupied Palestinian lands in the West Bank that would leave the Palestinians with a small non-contiguous archipelago of territories surrounded by Israel. Across this archipelago, Israel would control air space, water rights, and the movements of people and goods between each segment of the Palestinian "state" and neighboring Arab states.



Finally, the hatred one finds in many parts of the Palestinian community toward Israel stems from years of suffering under a brutal and humiliating U.S.-backed Israeli occupation. Instead of blaming "extremists" for "stirring up" such hatred, the best way to help moderate voices to prevail is to press Israel to end its illegal occupation and colonization of occupied Palestinian land.



Stephen Zunes is Middle East editor for the Foreign Policy In Focus Project. He is a professor of Politics and the author of Tinderbox: U.S. Middle East Policy and the Roots of Terrorism (Common Courage Press, 2003).

Al Qaeda attacks documented

45
American intelligence community publishes its report, that categorically states that the invasion of Iraq has increased the threat of terror.

Campaign in Iraq has increased terrorism threat, says American intelligence report

· Views of 16 government agencies pooled
· Study contradicting Bush was not made public

Dan Glaister in Los Angeles
Monday September 25, 2006
The Guardian

An authoritative US intelligence report pooling the views of 16 government agencies concludes America's campaign in Iraq has increased the threat of terrorism.

The National Intelligence Estimate was completed in April but not made public. Its conclusions, which were first reported by the New York Times, contradict assertions made by President George Bush and White House officials during the fifth anniversary of the September 11 attacks.

"It's a very candid assessment," said one official who has seen the report. "It's stating the obvious."

The report, Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States, points out the "centrality" of the US invasion of Iraq in fomenting terrorist cells and attacks. One section of the 30-page report, Indicators of the Spread of the Global Jihadist Movement, describes how the American presence in Iraq has helped spread radical Islam by providing a focal point for anti-Americanism.

While arguing that there has been success in dismantling the leadership of al-Qaida and its ability to plan major operations, the report says that radical cells have moved to more than 5,000 websites to organise and spread their message.

The report's tone contradicts recent optimistic assertions by the US administration. It also furthers the divisions between the military and politicians in their assessment of the impact of US policy in Iraq.

In his speech to mark the fifth anniversary of the attacks of 9/11, President Bush said: "The world is safer because Saddam Hussein is no longer in power. The safety of America depends on the outcome of the battle in the streets of Baghdad."

But in a speech in April, thought to be largely based on the report, CIA chief General Michael Hayden, then deputy director of national intelligence, painted a more alarming picture. "New jihadist networks and cells, sometimes united by little more than their anti-western agendas, are increasingly likely to emerge," Gen Hayden said. "If this trend continues, threats to the US at home and abroad will become more diverse and that could lead to increasing attacks worldwide."

Democratic senator Edward Kennedy said in a statement that the report "should put the final nail in the coffin for President Bush's phoney argument about the Iraq war. How many more independent reports, how many more deaths, how much deeper into civil war will Iraq need to fall for the White House to wake up and change its strategy in Iraq?"

But the White House said yesterday that press coverage of the intelligence report did not give the whole picture. A spokesman said terrorist extremism "did not develop overnight" after the US invaded Iraq. "Those seeds were planted decades ago," he said. "Instead of waiting while they plot and plan attacks to kill innocent Americans, the United States has taken the initiative to fight back."

The Republican Senate leader, Bill Frist, said that while he had not seen the report, "we've got to win this war on terror, wherever it is, and it's going to be fought overseas, or if we don't win there, it's going to be fought here in the United States".

The NIE report, the first formal assessment of global terrorism by US intelligence agencies since the invasion of Iraq, was started in 2004 under the leadership of David Low, an officer at the National Intelligence Council. The council, under the auspices of the national intelligence director, John Negroponte, is made up of present and former intelligence officials. It is charged with providing long-term assessments and analyses for the president and officials rather than policy prescriptions.

Its record, however, has been patchy. A NIE report issued in 2002 concluded that Iraq had "continued its weapons of mass destruction programmes", had biological and chemical weapons and "probably will have a nuclear weapon during this decade". A July 2004 NIE report concluded that the possible outcomes in Iraq ranged from a government with tenuous control to civil war.

The report comes days after the House intelligence committee warned that Iraq had become a breeding ground for terrorists and that the danger facing the US was "more alarming than the threat that existed" before 9/11.

The violence continued in Iraq over the weekend with 38 people killed in a suicide bombing in Sadr City on Saturday. Twenty people were killed in violence around Iraq yesterday, as well as two US soldiers in the Anbar province west of Baghdad.

The confusion surrounding Saddam Hussein's trial on genocide charges deepened yesterday when his defence team announced that it would boycott the trial indefinitely.

Five days after the judge in the case was unexpectedly removed, and four days after the new judge ejected the former Iraqi president from the court, Saddam's lawyers said that the court had violated the law. "The court committed several violations of the law and we will not just sit there gagged to give it legitimacy," said Khalil al-Dulaimi, who heads the former president's defence team. He cited the court's refusal to hear non-Iraqi lawyers in the case.

In their own words

"My administration, the Congress, and the United Nations saw the threat - and after 9/11, Saddam's regime posed a risk that the world could not afford to take. The world is safer because Saddam Hussein is no longer in power"
George Bush's address to the nation, September 11 2006

"I think it's clear that we are safer but not really yet safe. We've done a lot ... our ports are more secure, we have a much stronger intelligence sharing operation. We've clearly hurt badly the al-Qaida organisation"
Condoleezza Rice, September 10 2006

"I don't know how much better you can do than no attacks for the past five years. The fact is, the world is better off today with Saddam Hussein out of power. Think where we'd be if he was still there"
Dick Cheney, September 11 2006


Is CIA turning against the neo-conservatives?

Al Qaeda attacks documented

46
Cranius wrote:Is CIA turning against the neo-conservatives?


They met a dark side darker than they are when Cheney, Libby, Feith, Wurmsmer, and the rest of the PNAC cabal annexed a wing of Langley to build their fake Iraqi intelligence assembly line. Many long-time analysts have left the CIA in disgust during the Bush regime, Tenet was cut off at the knees, Powell cut himself off at the brain when he gave his show-and-tell at the UN with intelligence rejected by the real CIA. Bush probably thought Porter Goss would quell the rebellion, but that didn't stop the leaks, so he sent in General Hayden.

There are plenty of leaks still coming out of the intelligence community. What percentage is sourced to disgruntled CIA veterans and what is disinformation, who can know?

There are numerous rumors that some of the rulers of the corporate oligarchy are in favor of letting the Republicans lose Congress in the fall and then roasting Bush as a lame duck for his last two years, dropping the '07 recession square on his head. Very similar to the plummeting approval ratings of his father after the first Gulf War, and the designed recession of 91-92. Bush knows something is going on in his peabrain, it's probably why he's raging like a drunk in every press conference- his ass is on the fire, and he and Karl Rove are the only ones who think his popularity can be restored. I'm looking forward to seeing him crack up like Bogart in Caine Mutiny before all is said and done.

Bush is a bad investment at this point for the neo-cons, it's good money after bad. Better to let calamity reign, and that will set the stage for their next figurehead to win in 2008, Hillary Clinton.

The leaked intelligence report is good for the war machine either way. If it's right, it points to more defense spending to fight the new radicals generated by the Iraq occupation, and if it's wrong, it illustrates that pre-emptive attacks are working and more will follow, along with more defense spending.

The water is poisonous and there are no filters. We will be drinking terror-infected water for the rest of our lives. The War on Terror is not a war to bring peace, it is a war to promote more wars and more terror.

Al Qaeda attacks documented

47
NerblyBear wrote:
galanter wrote:
NerblyBear wrote:Well, I'll go ahead and formulate the question that was implicit anyway: If the administration's goals in the war have nothing to do with fighting terrorism, then why should we justify such a patently illegal and unethical operation?


We are both repeating ourselves at this point.

I believe the administration's goals are exactly fighting terrorism. The first round in this recent war was taking down the Taliban and exterminating al Qaeda in Afghanistan, and there was no oil to be had there.

I disagree that in the big picture using force to fight terrorists is either illegal or unethical. It's self-defense, and self-defense is a long accepted activity.

There may be individual incidents long the way that are illegal or unethical...rapes, tortures, intentional and avoidable killing of civilians...these should be punished and seem to come with every war...some degree of criminality exists in any collection of humans.

But these lesser crimes do not change the big picture. There are terrorists who work everyday to find a way to kill *you*...and I think killing them first is a fine idea.


The individual incidents were part of a chain that began with the major unethical incident: the entrance into an illegal war in the first place. All of these incidents, such as rapes and tortures, are the responsibility of this administration for its decision to engage in the war in the first place. If the initial motivation for the war were just--say, if Saddam actually
did represent a threat to the U.S., or if he actually were in cahoots with Al Qaeda, both of which are false--then I can see how we should try as hard as we can to hold individual parties responsible. But, for instance, if executives at Ford Motors make the decision to fabricate cars that are dangerous, we hold them accountable instead of the people who actually fabricate the parts in the factory. Same thing applies in this case.

Again, we agree about capturing and killing terrorists. No disagreement here. What we disagree about is the systematic destruction of entire nations' infrastructures--such as those of Afghanistan and Iraq--that are motivated by greed and not by the desire to protect Americans.

If the administration had wanted to protect Americans from further terrorism, they should have cooperated with international police forces to find and liquidate specific terrorist cells instead of doing what they actually did: palpably use "terrorism" as nothing more than a smokescreen for the intentions of huge oil companies to net huge profits. The eradication of the Taliban in Afghanistan is something I actually applaud the administration for undertaking; however, looking back after the fact, we can see it as the first step towards a completely unrelated goal: the destruction of Iraq. Hence, the motivation behind the destruction of the Taliban starts to seem a bit fishy.

As a result of such unconscionable behavior, the entire civilized world detests our administration and many more terrorist cells are proliferating like pimples on the face of a pubescent teenager.

Your entire argument, galanter, comes down to this: "I believe that what the administration is doing is stopping terrorists and protecting Americans." You are resting all of your erroneous assumptions on faith in a group of criminals that happen to seem legitimate because they wear fancy suits and they work in the White House. The rest of us, who are more informed about the actual breed of characters who always work in the White House, are much more skeptical, and, hence, in a much better position to understand the truth.

I think that if you were to allow yourself for one minute to doubt the stated intentions of this administration, significant results would follow for your understanding of geo-political events. The problem is that when, as in your case, a fictional world-view is so comforting and reassuring, why would anybody want to allow it to be undermined by pesky doubts and criticisms?


Thanks for articulating what would pretty much be my answer, if I were a better writer. I second this post wholeheartedly.

Al Qaeda attacks documented

48
rayj wrote:Thanks for articulating what would pretty much be my answer, if I were a better writer. I second this post wholeheartedly.


Better writing is not what is needed, and neither is better evidence. You shredded Galanter with some of the best posts on the board in the argument over whether Bush consciously promoted bad intelligence in the run-up to the War In Iraq. No one could have synopsized the chronology any better, or detailed the lies. Robots can't be retrained, you just have to wait until their batteries run out.

Al Qaeda attacks documented

49
I've explained many times how the case for fighting terrorism overlaps with, but is not the same as, taking down Saddam.

The above assumes I see both as one in the same. I do not.

The case for fighting terrorism is what I reference when I talk about al Qaeda and co.

Even if there was no war against al Qaeda terrorism, there was still a sufficient case for taking down Saddam. It is rooted in his killing more Muslims than anyone in the history of the world, his use of chemical weapons both inside and outside of Iraq, his initiating war against 3 different neighbors, his constant firing against the overflights preventing him from further killing Kurds and Shiites, and so on.

If you want to attack my position on these matters, please get it right in the first place.

Al Qaeda attacks documented

50
galanter wrote: ...there was still a sufficient case for taking down Saddam.


Do you honestly believe that an occupation was necessary to do this? Yes, he was hated by every country in the region, but no one took him seriously.

An even more sufficient case could be made for ending the other brutal regime in iraq: the U.S. imposed sanctions. Sanctions that killed close to a million civilians and children while at the same time strengthening Saddam's power over the people of Iraq by forcing them to rely on him for survival.

It seems to me that you are smart enough to look beyond the mainstream rhetoric, and yet that's all that ever comes out of your mouth. I doubt you are swallowing the latest American Idol merchandise, so why are you swallowing the latest CNN merchandise? Is it emotion? Is it fear? The Dennis Miller phenomenon?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests