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No character is treated with any intelligence or respect, like most of what the Cohens do. Everyone in this film is presented to be scoffed at. It's funny, but brutally condescending. The Cohens are a couple of condescending pricks, so I guess it's something of an opus.

Jackie Treehorn seemed to have his shit together. So did the chief of police and the other cops. Maude was supposed to be a bit skewed but "presented to be scoffed at"? i don't agree. Plus, The Dude solved the mystery. He was a likable character and he won.

The COENS (capitalized for correct spelling show-offiness) don't do what you say in their films. The characters in Fargo weren't shown as ridiculous. It was a standard thriller but the brilliant part was they set it in a part of the country where people talk funny and have this incredible "how ya doin?" nice streak to them. I think you've misconstrued their work. If you want someone who hates their characters start reading Flannery O'Connor.

I agree. In fact, I don't think you could miss the point any more widely on the Coen Brothers. Their comedic characters are always deeply flawed, but almost invariably sympathetic, morally complex, and capable of redemption.

If this is how you view their comedies, I'm curious what comedies you like. Almost all comedies have some element of scoffing at the characters. That's kind of the point. To paraphrase Mel Brooks, all comedy is tragedy that happens to someone else.

I'm going to third this with a hearty dose of WTF. Who's getting scoffed at in The Hudsucker Proxy? Tim Robbins? Jennifer Jason Leigh?

No one's getting scoffed at in Fargo, that's for damn sure. Frances McDormand's character in that movie is probably the strongest, most compelling, badass female lead i've ever seen in a movie. I mean, she's pregnant, for fuck's sake, and it's presented as nothing special or handicapping to her ability to do her job whatsoever. "Yup, got a bit of an extra load here, but i'm still gonna shoot that guy feeding his pal into the chipper." Fucking badass and amazing.

Donnie throws nothing but strikes until right before he dies. I think if they were portraying him as a bumbling dumbass they'd have him throw some gutters or something. And who the hell is scoffing at The Dude? He's taking it easy for all us sinners, man!

I think the idea that the Coens present offbeat characters or slightly less-smart characters in an effort to "mock" them comes from either some sort of high-falootin' patronization on the part of the person reading that into their films ("Oh, how awful of these filmmakers to look down upon those less intelligent than the rest of us. Sniff sniff"), or from some sort of inferiority complex. Just a theory.

I have sympathy with MWilke's point about the Coens being condescending. It's a feeling that I have about all of their movies. Their characters are a collection of amusing types to me, bumbling or quirky anecdote material that you could imagine smart alecs laughing at an intellectuals' dinner party. I think that you are definitely meant to laugh at some of their characters because of their dimness.

I don't find that this is automatically a bad thing: I still enjoy most of their films, and I still hold the Big Lebowski to be one of my favourite comedies. But I definitely share this sense of hollowness in their depiction of protagonists. I generally hate it when authors start getting emotional about their characters and talk about them as real beings rather than inventions due to the pretension, but the Coens' people are definitely more artificial than most. In extreme cases, their films become like clockwork freakshows.

Particular mannerisms are cartoon exaggerated as character shorthand. Tim Robbins' "You know, for kids!" cryptic optimism in The Hudsucker Proxy, Nic Cage's drawl slowed even further to match the cartoon moustache in Raising Arizona, Frances McDormand's incredible down-to-earth maxims in the face of Fargo's carnage, the personas seem to exist to serve these mannerisms, rather than vice-versa.

Again, this is not a criticism of most of their films. In this case, the style works exceptionally well - a kitchen sink drama version of the film would be intolerable.

Ty Webb wrote:I agree. In fact, I don't think you could miss the point any more widely on the Coen Brothers. Their comedic characters are always deeply flawed, but almost invariably sympathetic, morally complex, and capable of redemption.

If this is how you view their comedies, I'm curious what comedies you like. Almost all comedies have some element of scoffing at the characters. That's kind of the point. To paraphrase Mel Brooks, all comedy is tragedy that happens to someone else.

I'll just respond to this one, my gold standards of comedy are Mr. Show and Kids In the Hall. The characters typically presented there are of course the subject to ridicule, there's just better care and consideration taken into each character as to what makes them tick. The Coens tend to use charicatures, which is fine for it's own comedic place, but I find it very hollow because you're not really seeing them as a protagonist, just as a fall guy. I do still find many things they do funny, but I feel sadistic laughing with the Coens laughing at their characters.

Mr. Show and Kids In the Hall

Hi in Raising Arizona is far more sympathetic and complex than anything either of those shows has ever done and it's not just because he had the length of a feature film to be presented in. I love Kids in the Hall but all of their characters are caricatures, it's satire. Buddy Cole doesn't let us know what makes him tick. He gives monologues which are usually very very funny. I said it before but I think you have preconceptions about the Coen brothers movies and they are coloring your judgement sharply.

"I hate the fucking Eagles" for that line alone Big Lebowski will forever have a place in my heart.

NOT crap....i can't understand how this would be crap.

CRAP. admittedly, i've never seen the whole thing at once (i've probably stitched it all together for all the times i was forced to "give it a chance"), but that's because i lose interest in it. it's a chuckle here and there at best.

to people who incessantly quote this movie and/or 'Caddyshack' at get-togethers and parties, fuck you!

big lebowski is funny but id watch blood simple over it any day of the week.

154 wrote:to people who incessantly quote this movie and/or 'Caddyshack' at get-togethers and parties, fuck you!

You're definitely not invited to my Christmas party, dude. And we were going to play movie Pictionary.