He can also jump pretty high for a fairly old white guy.

Off a chair that is.

Tanx, you've got to kill me because I don't like this minstrel act bullshit?
Baby, we're married. You won't get rid of me that easy.

Tom fucking Waits. Jeee-zas Christ. I fucking hate Tom fucking Waits.
Faux hobo bullshit.

And yes, I been exposed to plenty. God, if I could have the hours of my life back that were spent driving around in pick-up trucks listening to Tom Waits (and the ever-present starry-eyed monologue espousing his genius)...jesus. I think I've taken five driving trip vacations in pick-up trucks where I was tortured with that affected granny spazz whiskey moaning of Tom Waits. I threw copies of Swordfishtrobone and Rain Dogs out the window of one of these pick-up trucks in Jasper. I never litter but forgave myself for soiling this pristine wilderness.

Perfect tunes for white collar fake libertines. Faux-bo.

Fucking Bukowski of music. Pick up some Fante. And some got-damn Woodie Guthrie. For real. You want beautiful creative ole timey American hardship tear-in-your beer shit? Buy some Woodie Guthrie.

itchy mcgoo wrote:Perfect tunes for white collar fake libertines. Faux-bo.

Yup. There's nothing "risky" or "out there" (or good, even) about Tom Waits. It comes across as so much calculated brine for preserving the memory of that which never was. That's right, Tom Waits is nostalgia personified. Down with nostalgia. Down with faux libertinism.

tipcat wrote:

itchy mcgoo wrote:Perfect tunes for white collar fake libertines. Faux-bo.

Yup. There's nothing "risky" or "out there" (or good, even) about Tom Waits. It comes across as so much calculated brine for preserving the memory of that which never was. That's right, Tom Waits is nostalgia personified. Down with nostalgia. Down with faux libertinism.

I understand this critique. I think it goes. Especially given how critically lauded he is as an "innovator" and supposed "genius." But from a different vantage I think it misses the point. Waits is theatrical, kitschy, nostalgic, and affected. I mean, so? It was hardly a stretch that someone who put Westside Story stuff on an album then wrote a successful musical is what I'm saying. That's his deal, those are his materials. Same goes for Jon Spencer, as far as the kitsch, etc.. It's kind of a redundant critique to my mind. Like saying Rites of Spring were too earnest.

I stopped listening to Waits about 10 years ago and have no desire to hear him again. But he doesn't make me angry. He's out there doing what he loves and people are lovin' it. I'm okay with that.

So you guys dont' hear any sincerity in songs like Martha or Ruby's Arms? How about Time, Jersey Girl or Downtown Train?

I just don't get it. I can understand disliking it, but I can't understand second guessing the motivations of someone who's been at it for as long as Waits has, or second guessing why people listen to his music.

bigc wrote:So you guys dont' hear any sincerity in songs like Martha or Ruby's Arms? How about Time, Jersey Girl or Downtown Train?

I just don't get it. I can understand disliking it, but I can't understand second guessing the motivations of someone who's been at it for as long as Waits has, or second guessing why people listen to his music.

It's not a zero-sum game between sincerity and theater. I think he writes and performs the stuff he wants to. I'm not saying he's just faking it; he's really into his fakery--he inhabits it. He means it. I think there's some complexity to it actually. Emotions like "heartbreak" are always already cliches for Waits; they're generic from the get-go. But rather than despairing at that, he runs with it.

See, I can glean some degree of sincerity from a bunch of his songs ("Who Are You?," especially) but I have to look past his irritating schtick to get to it, and that's not always easy to do.

I think the more I'm around fawning Tom Waits fans--the type who don't realize his "eccentric" persona is pure calculation and think his music is really "out there"--the less willing I am to listen to his records. I'm sure he is heartbroken by this. I know I shouldn't judge Waits by his fans any more than I should judge his songs by the goofy, second-hand affectation they're shot full of, but I can't help it.

itchy mcgoo wrote:God, if I could have the hours of my life back that were spent driving around in pick-up trucks listening to Tom Waits (and the ever-present starry-eyed monologue espousing his genius)...jesus. I think I've taken five driving trip vacations in pick-up trucks where I was tortured with that affected granny spazz whiskey moaning of Tom Waits. I threw copies of Swordfishtrobone and Rain Dogs out the window of one of these pick-up trucks in Jasper. I never litter but forgave myself for soiling this pristine wilderness.

I don't doubt your hatred of Tom Waits, but how much of this anger is just a reaction to Tom Waits nerd fellatio?

I guess I'm extremely guilty of buying into his faux nostalgia as I am the rare music nerd that isn't too crazy about Tom Waits beyond the '70s (most Waits nuts like the artsier '80s material as you well know). In the '70s though...not that I lived through the '70s or anything...a smoky bar like the one he recorded in for Nighthawks at the Diner smacks not of nostalgia, but rather just smacks me. It seems just right for its time and place.

Ultimately, I liked him better when he wasn't gargling gravel in his gullet like so many sparrows...a time when epileptic sea captains weren't playing accordions all over his records. Again, fault my nostalgia.

placeholder wrote:See, I can glean some degree of sincerity from a bunch of his songs ("Who Are You?," especially) but I have to look past his irritating schtick to get to it, and that's not always easy to do.

I think the more I'm around fawning Tom Waits fans--the type who don't realize his "eccentric" persona is pure calculation and think his music is really "out there"--the less willing I am to listen to his records. I'm sure he is heartbroken by this. I know I shouldn't judge Waits by his fans any more than I should judge his songs by the goofy, second-hand affectation they're shot full of, but I can't help it.

Understandable.

What makes you say his persona is pure calculation?

He is absolutely doing what he loves and people respond, deeply.

It's a great life and good for him. I hear he drives a late 60's Barracuda, so super good for him.

Quite simply, I truly dislike his music, his heavy-handed schtick, the working-class theater of it and would rather listen to Neurosis.

Do I see sincerity in his songs? I think Tom Waits paints the picture he wishes and it is certainly truthful to him. To me, it is cloyingly overwrought and schtick-ridden and difficult to not disregard the entire package because there is such a fucking elaborate stupid package.

I know that people who tell me they love me with Hallmark cards really do love me--I just wish they'd spell it out in pudding or flames, you know?