geiginni wrote:Yeah, I'm really hoping my wife will take me out to Topolobambo-diddly-oh some time. Has anyone else dined there, and how was it?

Let's call it a date, shall we? I'll let you know after May 1st what my schedule is like. My wife will be thrilled to try a new place.

On with the Zappa arguments!

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:SO NOT MOTHER FUCKING CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Zappa is the man. People who dislike him haven't heard his stuff.

I used to own every zappa record from freak out - till the early 80' s stuff. I had every single one. I only have about 3 left, and i have never missed any of the ones i sold.

Zappa fans are the deadheads of music geeks.

The guy's music had sincerity issues.

capnreverb wrote:

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:SO NOT MOTHER FUCKING CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Zappa is the man. People who dislike him haven't heard his stuff.

I used to own every zappa record from freak out - till the early 80' s stuff. I had every single one. I only have about 3 left, and i have never missed any of the ones i sold.

Zappa fans are the deadheads of music geeks.

The guy's music had sincerity issues.

Yeah, but Frank's music was never about anything that required sincerity.

By the same token, Stravinsky's music has some sincerity issues too. He also seemed offended by other's music (such as Bartok) that had strong emotional connections to one's past or home. Folk music, etc...

Which three Zappa albums do you still have/listen to? Yellow Shark? Perfect Stranger? LSO? Jazz from Hell?

I don't listen to Zappa much anymore, but I still get a kick out of it when I do. It's something I can agree on when I get together with friends. Much better than listening to Modest Mouse, Mogwai, QOTSA, etc.....

Hmm.

Frank Zappa, as a musician and a composer, is a force to be rivaled.

While you my not like some/all of his music, his opinions on the matter of music, the record industry, your garden variety socioeconomic American culture, etc. were pretty spot-on and might have even opened some ears and eyes on some levels.

So that is definately NOT CRAP.

His debates on CROSSFIRE (at ifilm.com viral videos) are absolutely great, especially the one listed as "II" where he just lets these morons blabber away for minutes, and then just calmly replies "No."

His music is a different matter. The original Mothers stuff can be terrific, one of the first hybrids of rock and composition, with a little Dada twist. It's important to look at the time frame of the band, also. At that point, I think a Mothers show would have been quite enjoyable.

Dylan wrote:On with the Zappa arguments!

Three words:

ELECTRIC AUNT JEMIMA

Oh and... listening to "waka/jawaka" right now, I'm pretty blown away by how great the recording is. I mean, none of the little "pip" snare drum shit you hear so much in early recordings

A lot of the stuff recorded at the Manor, even into the mid 70's had that "pip" snare sound. I was just listening to Henry Cow's "Legend" (or "Leg End" if you prefer) which was done in 1974. It's a great album, but the production really suffers. That drum sound is weak and dry... Same "pip" snare that you hear on the more "popular" albums of that era. Magma were very good at avoiding this dry and weak drum sound.

Just goes to show that Branson did more damage than his recent foray into reality TV. I'm afraid he's going to ruin VDGG's pretty solid reputation, but we'll see...

The Cows who became Bears did much better studio work at Sunrise in Switzerland... True, this was 5 years later, but really amazing use of the studio as an instrument.

And Zappa's recorded sound in 1972 was way ahead of anyone else I've heard for that time. Even if you lack (and I emphasize "lack") the taste for good (non-cornball, non-smooth) jazz, one should at least appreciate the fact that Zappa stayed away from those crappy 70's pip snare production values that are ubiquitous in Manor recordings.

Maybe that guy should have just stuck with airlines, and stayed out of the record business all together... Then again, if he didn't, I wouldn't be so aware of how ground breaking the White Stripes are...

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:If your favorite band is The Sex Pistols, then yeah, you won't get it...

But the man did some really amazing stuff, and it's his least popular work (go figure... Most people want music they can stomp their feet to).

I played her some stuff and she thought it was fantastic. Then again, it's a case of someone who's a talented software engineer and composer herself, so she was intelligent enough to see the brilliance.

I can see people who won't get it. It's not the emperor's new clothes. Most people will say Zappa is naked, when really he's wearing a long johns, 5 layers of t-shirts, courdoroy pants and a snow-suit (not to mention python boots and 2 pairs of socks).

This, to me, is the equivalent of

toomanyhelicopters wrote:my first inclination would be to think that people who hate the matrix don't fully understand the philiosophy behind it

I love this hilarious, elitist sort of fandom. "If you don't dig Zappa, you're just not intelligent enough to really get him, maaaaaan. The unwashed masses, i.e. anyone who doesn't like Zappa, is only interested in listening to mindless caveman music, like the Sex Pistols. You need to open your miiiiind." This is bullshit. The idea that musical taste is some sort of intelligence litmus test makes me want to roll my eyes right out of my fucking head. I sometimes find myself doing this sort of thing, albeit in a less pretentious way, and I don't like it.

I've heard more of Zappa's records than I care to admit, and I think they're all pretty awful. Granted, a lot of them are awful in very different ways. Maybe I haven't heard the "right ones" (Which ones are the "right ones"? The albums of all cock guitar solos? The cheesy fusion stuff? The ones with gradeschool-level sex humor? The cRaZy, WaCkY Broadway parody? "You Are What You Is"? The irritating novelty songs? The irritating doo-wop stuff? The records where he made fun of hippies while playing ridiculous, irritating hippie music? Do tell!) , but the stuff I have heard doesn't make me too eager to seek anything else out. I "get" his music, and I think it's "crap".

Zappa the man was undeniably very intelligent. His music, to me, was fucking abysmal. CRAP.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:All of the great progressive and art rock bands worship the guy.

FUCK! Is it too late to change my vote?

placeholder wrote:I've heard more of Zappa's records than I care to admit, and I think they're all pretty awful. Granted, a lot of them are awful in very different ways. Maybe I haven't heard the "right ones" (Which ones are the "right ones"? The albums of all cock guitar solos? The cheesy fusion stuff? The ones with gradeschool-level sex humor? The cRaZy, WaCkY Broadway parody? "You Are What You Is"? The irritating novelty songs? The irritating doo-wop stuff? The records where he made fun of hippies which playing ridiculous, irritating hippie music? Do tell!) , but the stuff I have heard doesn't make me eager to seek anything else out. I "get" his music, and I think it's "crap".

Um, I think I went into a pretty decent description of why Waka/Jawaka is very palatable. In my opinion, these are all good Zappa records (I took the liberty of bolding the ones I think are best, and the coolest thing is that other Zappa fans will completely disagree. It's a concept known as diversity, which has been stamped out by the recording industry oligopoly):

Freak Out (1966)
Absolutely Free (1967)
We're Only In It For The Money (1968)
Uncle Meat (1969)
Hot Rats (1969)
Burnt Weenie Sandwich (1969)
Weasels Ripped My Flesh (1970)
Chunga's Revenge (1970)
Waka/Jawaka (1972)
The Grand Wazoo (1972)
Over-Nite Sensation (1973)
(') (1974)
Roxy & Elsewhere (1974)
One Size Fits All (1975)
Bongo Fury (w/Beefheart 1975)
Zoot Allures (1976)
Shiek Yerbouti (1979)
Joe's Garage (Act I only, up to [and not including] "Lucile" 1979)
Jazz From Hell (1986)
Make a Jazz Noise Here (1991)
The Yellow Shark (1993)
Civilization, Phaze III (1994)

It seems you have only heard his bad stuff. I don't even own the "shut up and play your guitar" series or the cheesy fusion stuff, or the wacky broadway parody stuff, or the doo-wop stuff... "We're only in it for the money" is mired in a 60's rock sound, but it's not hippy, and Zappa is not a hippy. Being critical of the American way should not be confused with being a hippy.

I own probably 20 Zappa CD's (sorry, didn't listen when it was available on vinyl!) and these are obviously none of the ones you have heard.

To me, this is like people who think "Genesis" is the first Genesis album, and haven't heard the good stuff, because it never made it's way to MTV.

Again, you have to put forth some effort and do some research.

Zappa suffers from the same condition Genesis and many other fine artists suffer from... The fact that their popular shit occludes their non-popular genius. There really is an inverse relationship between musical intelligence and popularity. I'm not a fan of the whole "unwashed masses" thing, but most music today (even indie rock) suffers from a lack of intra and inter diveristy. In terms of "intra-diversity", bands are encouraged to have a "sound", so every song on an album sounds the same. This is so fucking boring. In terms of "inter-diversity", bands are encouraged to fit into nice neat genres so the industry can reap profits off of the new trend (uh, shitty 80's music like Interpoop, Modest Muff, Fucked Turdinand). When the rock record industry was younger, there was more competition among the many record labels. The competition caused labels to take risks. Zappa felt that no one could do what he did in the 60's-70's today, because labels don't take risks anymore.

Now there's a few major labels that own other major labels and "indie" labels... This is how industry evolves in a capitalist economy (anyone take any econ in college?). It progresses from pure competition to oligopoly, to monopoly.

The most obvious evidence is how a band like Henry Cow, signed to Virgin, is still more fresh and original than most bands signed to [fill in the blank] indie label that pawns off King Crimson clones that have just filtered out all the "cheese" (and also the warmth) from that sound. Anyone who thinks their favorite indie label is doing something decent, I'd have to say, even stuff on Virgin/Charisma from the 70's is more cutting edge. I do have to give a nod to Skin Graft and a few others for trying to put out music that goes beyond...

And you do have to be intelligent and dilligent to find out what is good and what is not. It takes work and effort beyond what you'll find in the pages of any indie-zine.

As much as Zappa favored people voting, I don't think you should be able to vote on this one if you think "Shut up and play your guitar volumes 1-3" are "Zappa". Yes, he made those records, and about 100 other records. He was prolific. Most of his records are crap. The ones that aren't are so fucking brilliant, that they make his crap irrelevant. Just avoid the bad ones...

I just don't own those bad Zappa CD's. It doesn't take a lot of work to figure this out. You go to Amazon, listen to the samples and read the reviews...

Some people have very limited tastes in music, and that's fine. Don't blame Zappa for your narrow interests.

I feel sorry for Zappa. The way he is represented today (by groups like Project Object) would make anyone hate Zappa. My friend played me a bootleg of Project Object live, and they managed to play every bad Zappa tune there is. While Zappa was alive, he was very critical of these bands with ex-Zappa band members... The fact is, the great Zappa compositions are very difficult to play...

Without Zappa, where would Terry Bozzio, Steve Vai, and so many others be? Where would Bowie be... he pilfered many a musician from Zappa, after they had polished their skills on his intensly complicated compositions and demanding re-working of material.

These people were virtual nobodies, but Zappa didn't care what sort of buzz you had. If you auditioned and you played well, that's all that mattered.

Also, on tour, Zappa wouldn't be snorting coke and flittering about. He would stay in his hotel room re-writing horn charts and re-arranging the music so that each show would be different... The closest I've seen to this in the "indie" world is Cheer-Accident.

http://www.keneally.com/1988.html

I do find Zappa's anti-drug stance to be sanctimonious, considering he smoked 4 packs of cigs and drank 10 pots of coffee a day... And I must admit, his music is something I do enjoy (immensly) in altered states.

The thing I notice here is everyone who dislikes Zappa has obviously not heard a note of the 15 years of great music he did. They've only heard the last 15 years of crap.

Who the FUCK can listen to "Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbeque" on Weasels, and say Zappa is crap?!?

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:
All of the great progressive and art rock bands worship the guy.

FUCK! Is it too late to change my vote?

The unwashed masses, i.e. anyone who doesn't like Zappa, is only interested in listening to mindless caveman music, like the Sex Pistols. You need to open your miiiiind." This is bullshit.

Great argument. "This is bullshit". What great new worlds did The Sex Pistols open up? Ripping off 3 songs from a Peter Hammill solo album that was a satire of an arrogant rock star and making a musical career out of it? Or are you more enamoured by the junkie murderer? Not much of the Sex Pistols fame and noteriety comes from writing decent music, yet some consider them the holy grail of "punk". Give me a fucking break. Fuck the Sex Pistols and the retards that continue to emulate them.

I guess if you find songs with 3 bar chords fascinating, I can't tell you you're wrong. It's your opinion. I prefer artists that use more than 2 parameters in music composition. I like composers that work hard and create intricate and intelligent works. It's just that I like to buy a recording that I can listen to more than once, and not be like "Oh, yeah... 3 bar chords, 4/4 time. Got it" on the first listen.

To me, it's pretty simple. I let the music speak for itself. Not once do I mention the PMRC challenges or the great political work that Zappa did so stupid chuckleheads could "write" songs about popping coochies. I think this is irrelevant. The great Zappa compositions speak for themselves, and no amount of his popular, redolent material can change how great these are.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:
Who the FUCK can listen to "Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbeque" on Weasels, and say Zappa is crap?!?

Actually, calling a tune that is one of the reasons why I lean towards giving him a crap.

Eric Dolphy?

Zappa wishes.

Reading your rim job of zappa's catalogue makes me like him even less. It's like hearing deadheads go on and on.

The dude's music lacks sincerity.

His orchestral stuff is not that amazing.
His attempts at jazz where painful, and 99% of all fusion sucks, and his fusion falls in that 99%.
His records for the most part seem like comedy records.
His guitar solo's are quite good, but he talked shit about people who took guitar solo's. So, was he talking shit about himself?
His records are clever with lots of good playing and nice arrangements, but i feel like he is bullshitting me.
I like him as an outspoken activist, and overall thorn on societys values, but thats not music, it's politics.
There are some chioce guitar solo's on Joe's garage act 2-3. I still like Chunga's Revenge and some stuff from the One Size Fits All period, and Lumpy Gravy has it's moments .......... bit it all seems rather devoid of emotion and sincerity - two things i really need from my music.

Zappa seemed like god to me when I was 17, now he just seems like some bitter ol dude who fell short of what he could have done if he just droppped the joke crap and focused on the real dal. His buddy Don Van Vilet carried the real torch.

PS, Steve Vai sucks, so for that Zappa should get a crap vote.