Dave N. wrote: Thu Mar 20, 2025 5:48 pm What started groove metal? I seem to remember the groove on “Raining Blood” opening the door, but is there a better early example?

Man, maybe Supernaut by Sabbath. That's a tough one to answer, but it definitely evolved from thrash breakdowns.

Krev wrote: Thu Mar 20, 2025 6:02 pm

Dave N. wrote: Thu Mar 20, 2025 5:48 pm What started groove metal? I seem to remember the groove on “Raining Blood” opening the door, but is there a better early example?

Man, maybe Supernaut by Sabbath. That's a tough one to answer, but it definitely evolved from thrash breakdowns.

Yes, Phil Anselmo even alluded to that in some Sam Dunn documentary, saying that the midtempo thrash break was often the coolest part so why not make it the whole song... personally, I think that misses the point but that's me; I'm not a fan of "groove metal" in spite of loving a well-done thrash/mosh break since I was a kid... it's the *break* aspect that makes it cool IMO.

In all fairness, the groove metal bands generally added more "groove"/syncopation to the midtempo chugga-lugga riffage than there tended to be in the often very stiff 80s metal but while that's not an inherently bad thing, it often manifested itself in a kind of yucky "dude-bro" way which is the result of adding too much muscle and testosterone to the mix; even Hip-Hop at its absolutely most meatheaded tend to get it right or at least better, if only because of the sonics. In general, the best grooves in metal are frequently accidental as opposed to self-consciously groovy IMO...