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^ Haven't read the book, but I appreciated his appearance on Majority Report (in case anyone is interested in hearing him speak about it):

eephus wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:17 pmIt's much easier to demonstrate a strong likelihood that free will doesn't exist than it is to show in any meaningful way that it does.

Where I get stuck on this question is the extistential aspect. Say I grant the proposition (which is justified) that everything is objectively speaking deterministic and that there is no faculty in myself which directs or alters my behaviour independently and over against whatever we would categorize as non-willed activity, and the set of inputs from which it stems.

In that case I am still in a situation where I subjectively experience myself as having free will - being able to choose between alternative actions - and furthermore I seem unable to *not* experience things in this way, to act as if I *didn't* have free will.

It seems that I have to deal with the actuality of experiencing myself as a free subject, and therefore investigate the nature of this mode of existing, which makes up the objective circumstances of my acting, as much as any of those circumstances which I read as deterministic or involuntary in comparison. It even appears that I need to investigate this mode even more than the other one, since it appears to me as the root of my action far more than the other, which is supposed to be the real ground of my existence, and that which is actually determinable and securely knowable (at least in a way that can be communicated). Is supposed to be, but since I have to take the "non-objective" part of my experience as essential, and to regard this part on equal level with the "objective" part (in order to form a satisfying idea and account, if only to myself, of my experience), how much am I actually helped by knowing that all my action is objectively determined if I still have to treat it as free action?

Additionally, considering for example those series of experiments which indicate that the neural impulse to act in some specific way arrives several moments earlier than the subjective sense of deciding to act in that way, and which therefore suggest that this sense is a mere recording of a process already completed; this makes things still more confusing, because the question that then arises is: Why has the brain developed the ability to trick itself and the organism into thinking it has agency? It seems absurd.

In short, the suggestion that "all actions are predetermined and autonomous agency is therefore illusory" doesn't seem to provide much practical insight - it leaves us continuing to relate to the fact of our seeming free will in the same way we would if we didn't know it was predetermined.

mrcancelled wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2023 8:12 pm A while back I decided to read every Graham Greene novel, just finished the final book. Some are certainly better than others but there's not a single one I didn't enjoy reading. My ratings:

1. The Man Within (Heinemann, 1929) 7/10
2. Stamboul Train (Heinemann, 1932) (also published as Orient Express)s 6.5/10
3. It's a Battlefield (Heinemann, 1934) 6/10
4. England Made Me (Heinemann, 1935) (also published as The Shipwrecked) 7/10
5. A Gun for Sale (Heinemann, 1936) (also published as This Gun for Hire) 8/10
6. Brighton Rock (Heinemann, 1938) 7.5/10
7. The Confidential Agent (Heinemann, 1939) 8/10
8. The Power and the Glory (Heinemann, 1940) (also published as The Labyrinthine Ways) 7/10
9. The Ministry of Fear (Heinemann, 1943) 8/10
10. The Heart of the Matter (Heinemann, 1948) 7/10
11. The Third Man (1949) (novella, as a basis for the screenplay) 9/10
12. The End of the Affair (Heinemann, 1951) 9/10
13. The Quiet American (Heinemann, 1955) 10/10
14. Loser Takes All (Heinemann, 1955) 6/10
15. Our Man in Havana (Heinemann, 1958) 9/10
16. A Burnt-Out Case (Heinemann, 1960) 10/10
17. The Comedians (The Bodley Head, 1966) 9.5/10
18. Travels with My Aunt (The Bodley Head, 1969) 6/10
19. The Honorary Consul (The Bodley Head, 1973) 8.5/10
20. The Human Factor (The Bodley Head, 1978) 9.5/10
21. Doctor Fischer of Geneva or The Bomb Party (The Bodley Head, 1980) 6.5/10
22. Monsignor Quixote (Bodley Head, 1982) 8/10
23. The Tenth Man (The Bodley Head and Anthony Blond, 1985) 7/10
24. The Captain and the Enemy (Reindhart Books, 1988) 7.5/10

This is great! I’ve read maybe eight or ten of his novels and will use this to guide any future readings.

^ I'd do one of those for Philip K Dick eventually.

jimmy spako wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 4:50 am This morning I started Calvino's Invisible Cities on the bus ride home. The first page, which I've read numerous times with the intention of going further, is achingly beautiful.

I envy you reading this for the first time. One of the few writers where I've come to accept I'll have to read everything they published, albeit in translation.

I recently read the Nnedi Okorafor Binti e-books, knowing almost nothing about them. Because of the format, I was surprised to discover they were novellas (as in, the first one ended before I was ready for it to do so, not a bad thing), but they're vivid and really well done. The protagonist's flight from vividly-rendered PTSD into advanced mathematics made me very happy. I've mentally filed them as future gifts for the niece and nephew in a few years time.

Had never read Chester Himes before. Found All Shot Up in a used bookshop and took it home. Cannot believe how good it is. Sympathetic queer characters, traumatic violence, sharp politics, extraordinary descriptive writing that's vivid and musical, and really grim, horrible jokes. Published 1960. Unreal.

Wood Goblin wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 8:56 am

mrcancelled wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2023 8:12 pm A while back I decided to read every Graham Greene novel, just finished the final book. Some are certainly better than others but there's not a single one I didn't enjoy reading. My ratings:

1. The Man Within (Heinemann, 1929) 7/10
2. Stamboul Train (Heinemann, 1932) (also published as Orient Express)s 6.5/10
3. It's a Battlefield (Heinemann, 1934) 6/10
4. England Made Me (Heinemann, 1935) (also published as The Shipwrecked) 7/10
5. A Gun for Sale (Heinemann, 1936) (also published as This Gun for Hire) 8/10
6. Brighton Rock (Heinemann, 1938) 7.5/10
7. The Confidential Agent (Heinemann, 1939) 8/10
8. The Power and the Glory (Heinemann, 1940) (also published as The Labyrinthine Ways) 7/10
9. The Ministry of Fear (Heinemann, 1943) 8/10
10. The Heart of the Matter (Heinemann, 1948) 7/10
11. The Third Man (1949) (novella, as a basis for the screenplay) 9/10
12. The End of the Affair (Heinemann, 1951) 9/10
13. The Quiet American (Heinemann, 1955) 10/10
14. Loser Takes All (Heinemann, 1955) 6/10
15. Our Man in Havana (Heinemann, 1958) 9/10
16. A Burnt-Out Case (Heinemann, 1960) 10/10
17. The Comedians (The Bodley Head, 1966) 9.5/10
18. Travels with My Aunt (The Bodley Head, 1969) 6/10
19. The Honorary Consul (The Bodley Head, 1973) 8.5/10
20. The Human Factor (The Bodley Head, 1978) 9.5/10
21. Doctor Fischer of Geneva or The Bomb Party (The Bodley Head, 1980) 6.5/10
22. Monsignor Quixote (Bodley Head, 1982) 8/10
23. The Tenth Man (The Bodley Head and Anthony Blond, 1985) 7/10
24. The Captain and the Enemy (Reindhart Books, 1988) 7.5/10

This is great! I’ve read maybe eight or ten of his novels and will use this to guide any future readings.

Thanks! Yeah I was surprised at how solid even his earliest work is. You can definitely tell he was still feeling himself out as a writer but he really had a knack for storytelling early on (that said, I didn't read the two early novels he disowned, I don't think they are in print). I'd like to check out some of his non-fiction soon too.

kokorodoko wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 9:38 am ^ I'd do one of those for Philip K Dick eventually.

I'd love to do the same thing at some point. I read Confessions of a Crap Artist in high school, I remember enjoying it but it probably wasn't the best place to start with him... been meaning to read some others ever since.

Walkaway, by Cory Doctorow

kokorodoko wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:30 am In short, the suggestion that "all actions are predetermined and autonomous agency is therefore illusory" doesn't seem to provide much practical insight - it leaves us continuing to relate to the fact of our seeming free will in the same way we would if we didn't know it was predetermined.

Sure, "free will is an illusion" affects nothing except some aspects of philosophy and religion. It's all-but built in to the premise that you'll just continue to act the way you are predisposed to act anyway, so whatever. What is undeniable is that our experience is real.

The problem I have is where the idea of "myself" comes into it. I get to experience the universe from one very specific point of view but surely there is nothing material to favour one point of view over any other, so why has subjective consciousness alighted on THIS guy? It's reasonable to assume that it doesn't favour anyone in particular. And where does that leave us... we're all aspects of a single consciousness? Could be?

mrcancelled wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 7:53 pmI'd love to do the same thing at some point. I read Confessions of a Crap Artist in high school, I remember enjoying it but it probably wasn't the best place to start with him... been meaning to read some others ever since.

Yeah that seems to be an unusual one. From the ones I've read my ranking would be something like this:

Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? (1966) - the Mercer-arc here still sticks with me the most.
Flow My Tears, the Policeman Said (1970) - strong mood, distinct example of the for me characteristic PKD thing where it's particularly about the psychological state of living in a dystopian world.
VALIS (1978) - hard to rate, very interesting and personally important to me but very confusing. thinking I will come back to it later and also reading the rest of the trilogy.
The Man in the High Castle (1961)
Ubik (1969) - just remembered the scene in the apartment early on which is fucking hilarious, brazil-level black comedy.
Martian Time-Slip (1962)
Time Out of Joint (1958)

I think High Castle is one of his most suggestive (and effective) treatments of reality being more provisional than it looks. A Scanner Darkly is one for the ages.

I think A Maze of Death is one of his most extraordinary books.