RADAR 24

51
Even today, what would I do if someone came into my studio with a 9-track tape of Soundstream data? Or a Betamax with DBX Digital audio? Or a 3M Digital master, or an X850 tape, or Prodigi or -- or -- or...


Admittedly I am coming to this topic a little late... I just found this board.

It seems odd to me that digital systems go obsolete yet analog systems are "re-manufactured". And just how are these analog machines maintained so well. Oh there are schematics, drawings, and documentation on how they operate. Boy the digital guys sure messed up on that one. Not one shred of documentation to be able to keep those dig beasties alive.

Dr. Thomas Stockham, from MIT, founded Soundstream in 1975 and made the first commercial digital recording in 1976. Telarc released the first Digital to LP recordings in 1978 and CDs in 1982. The Soundstream recorder sampled at 50kHz and had to be down sampled to 44.1kHz. Today Telarc is releasing on SACD from the original Soundstream masters, material that has not been heard in the sample rate of the original recording for nearly 30 years.

WHAT!!!! That can't be true. Digital is obsolete and removed from the face of the earth after what, 3-4 years.

Need 3M... I know where 2 are within 30 minutes drive
Need Prodigi... Throw a rock they are everywhere
Betamax... Come on there's got to be one out there somewhere and easier to find than trying to get a 40 track 2" to play back on a 24 track Studer.

I love analog. I love how big (size) and warm (heat) and the the smell of analog tape winding on the reels... I'm serious... I do. I love the sound of analog. (though I have to admit that digital unit that started this thread sounds pretty good)

The argument that somehow digital dries up and blows away is faulty.
There are keepers of the digital technology as well as the analog.

RADAR 24

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analogman_digitalworld wrote:

Even today, what would I do if someone came into my studio with a 9-track tape of Soundstream data? Or a Betamax with DBX Digital audio? Or a 3M Digital master, or an X850 tape, or Prodigi or -- or -- or...


It seems odd to me that digital systems go obsolete yet analog systems are "re-manufactured". And just how are these analog machines maintained so well. Oh there are schematics, drawings, and documentation on how they operate. Boy the digital guys sure messed up on that one. Not one shred of documentation to be able to keep those dig beasties alive.


In 1990 or so (only 4 years after the last run of machines came out of Mitsubishi), Chicago Recording Company was delivered a Mitsubishi X80 master to use as part of a re-issue project. They had a working machine, and their own file tapes would play, but the delivered master wouldn't.

There was no support from Mitsubishi, and in three days of calling around, they couldn't figure out why the machine wouldn't play the audio. They sent the tape to Nashville (where there were quite a few of the machines in the day, and a few still working) and had several studios try to play it to make a copy. Finally, by chance, the tape ended up on the machine it was originally recorded on (which had been bought at a closing sale). It wouldn't play. The engineer, as a last resort, twisted the azimuth screw, and -- briefly -- a choppy kind of music came out. Then it wouldn't play again.

For compatability's sake, the azimuth stability of these machines is critical, and there is an azimuth adjusting screw. Unfortunately, nobody (not even Mitsubishi, apparently) ever made an alignment tape for them, so every machine on earth is different, and fractional azimuth errors caused the error correction to be overwhelmed.

There's an example of a machine that cannot be made to perform properly, no matter how much energy is put into it, because the tools to make it right were never made, the installed base (200 total machines at its peak) is shrunken, and the technology was abandoned before anyone developed technical proficiency with it.


Dr. Thomas Stockham, from MIT, founded Soundstream in 1975 and made the first commercial digital recording in 1976. Telarc released the first Digital to LP recordings in 1978 and CDs in 1982. The Soundstream recorder sampled at 50kHz and had to be down sampled to 44.1kHz. Today Telarc is releasing on SACD from the original Soundstream masters, material that has not been heard in the sample rate of the original recording for nearly 30 years.


While Soundstream was an interesting concept (Delta-mod at a high sample rate, just like SACD and DBX digital) it had its own problems: Horrible phase shift in the converters (from the anti-aliasing filters), no dither and no error correction, which meant that low level signals tended to be overwhelmed by error. This was when people started talking about how digital "took away the ambience" of a recording.

I'm thrilled that Telarc has found both a working nine-track drive and a working Soundstream decoder. They are probably the only place to have such a combination, as the original installed base of Soundstream systems was about 20. If they can play back those tapes without having to re-draw half the waveforms in DAW, they're beating the odds like nobody else.


Need 3M... I know where 2 are within 30 minutes drive
Need Prodigi... Throw a rock they are everywhere
Betamax... Come on there's got to be one out there somewhere and easier to find than trying to get a 40 track 2" to play back on a 24 track Studer.


I know where quite a few broken and dis-used machines are as well. I don't have a protocol for playing one of these masters though.

40-track Stephens would be difficult to play back properly without a Stephens 40-track machine, but I could play it back and hear sound on any machine in the building. Within a week I could get a headstack made and wired-up, if it were important enough. Orphaned digital files are silent.


I love analog. I love how big (size) and warm (heat) and the the smell of analog tape winding on the reels... I'm serious... I do. I love the sound of analog.


This fetishism regarding analog technologies is retarded. The systems work, are reliable, robust and universal. That's enough for me. I don't particularly care what they look like or smell like, and I think digital systems have advanced to the point that -- regarding basic sound quality -- I have no real complaint with them. The current 24-bit systems sound fine, when properly executed.

Sound is not even an issue worth discussing until archival performance and moment-to-moment reliability are realized. Digital systems expect you to back up your work continuously -- a tacit admission that the data aren't safe.

The digital recording culture is also a debatable point, as the facilities and tricks at the disposal of the engineer become the defining characteristics of a generation of music, but I digress.

-steve
steve albini
Electrical Audio
sa at electrical dot com
Quicumque quattuor feles possidet insanus est.

RADAR 24

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In 1990 or so (only 4 years after the last run of machines came out of Mitsubishi), Chicago Recording Company was delivered a Mitsubishi X80 master to use as part of a re-issue project. They had a working machine, and their own file tapes would play, but the delivered master wouldn't.

There was no support from Mitsubishi, and in three days of calling around, they couldn't figure out why the machine wouldn't play the audio.


Ouch... I have had some experience with the X-80 2 tracks units (actually released in 1980 hence the '80'). The first razor blade editable digital format. It was a beast to keep running. There were adjustment manuals and generally speaking an X-80 could be adjusted to play a tape from the tape you were using. But I will have to concede the point on the X-80. It was a hand wired experiment and outside of Japan there are only 4-5 ex-mitsu techs that could attempt to resurrect a mis-aligned tape. I think it could be done, but not easily. The 2nd generation 2 track, the X-86, was much more stable although not as adept at razor blade editing.

While Soundstream was an interesting concept (Delta-mod at a high sample rate, just like SACD and DBX digital) it had its own problems: Horrible phase shift in the converters (from the anti-aliasing filters), no dither and no error correction, which meant that low level signals tended to be overwhelmed by error. This was when people started talking about how digital "took away the ambience" of a recording.


My point was not the sound but that after nearly 30 years the original masters were able to be played and re-mastered. The earlier contention was that this should be possible with elderly digital masters (excepting X-80s of course :) ) The first magnetic wire recordings sound like hell as well but they can be played back.


I know where quite a few broken and dis-used machines are as well. I don't have a protocol for playing one of these masters though.


40-track Stephens would be difficult to play back properly without a Stephens 40-track machine, but I could play it back and hear sound on any machine in the building. Within a week I could get a headstack made and wired-up, if it were important enough.


But like in your Stephens example , if it were important enough would one not fix the machine in order to use it? Certainly to make up a 40 track headstack would not be cheap. Nor the interfacing of it.


Orphaned digital files are silent.


I agree that analog recorders are omni-present and if properly maintained are able to playback tapes both present and past. There is no reason that digital recorders should be any different.


I love analog. I love how big (size) and warm (heat) and the the smell of analog tape winding on the reels... I'm serious... I do. I love the sound of analog.


I was poking fun... I apologize...

Sound is not even an issue worth discussing until archival performance and moment-to-moment reliability are realized. Digital systems expect you to back up your work continuously -- a tacit admission that the data aren't safe.


The point of my post was not to debate sound or archival, but to point out that there is no reason given proper maintenance that digital systems should not be able to reproduce recordings made on a particular format well into the future.

RADAR 24

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analogman trapped into digital time. How interesting. Nice email address, by the way. And your info is such a blast to read. I am very proud that we can comunicate with Elvis himself, becouse I know that's you.
I always had a thing for you...the way you move your hips...oh, mama!

DaveIzDave,
I will forward you a customer from another forum directly.
Just don't go into comparing....
Good luck.

RADAR 24

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I am very proud that we can comunicate with Elvis himself, becouse I know that's you.
I always had a thing for you...the way you move your hips...oh, mama!


Thank you Lunar.... Thank you very much...

[Jordanaires Oohing in background]

You know, as I travel down life's highway something my mama said to me long ago keeps coming back to me. She said, "Son, you're just a poor boy from Tupelo. When you met up with those fellers from the big cities just remember this. When they run out of facts or can't answer your arguments they will resort to insults and name calling. But don't you worry, Boy, you're gonna be a big star one day."

Well that was my Mama. She was a great lady. Thanks again Lunar. It's a good day when you can remember your Mama's advice and still have it ring true.

[Fade Jordanaires]

RADAR 24

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Well,
every respect to your Mama, we would not call her a liar, right?!
No, way!
And I can tell you that she raised you good. I am from big city (one million is big in Croatia).
But my Mama told me not to speak with strangers...now she was wrong, right?!
You can actually learn something from everybody, right?!

RADAR 24

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Hey everyone,

I've been doing telephone tech support for iZ from home for the past 2 years. My studio keeps me too busy to work out of the iZ office, so they've set up a pretty sweet deal for me. Still, please don't think that makes me biased towards the Radar. I obviously know first hand every problem people have with the machine. I just thought I would throw my opinion in.

Maybe I didn't catch it in this thread, since I find that people have way too much to say on this topic for me to have the patience to read it all, but I think I should explain why I love the Radar.

First off, I love analog tape... I have no fear of tape hiss, tape smells great, tape compression is my favorite kind of compression, I really enjoy calibrating machines, I always mix to my 2 track, I own several formats etc etc...

What blow me away is that I found nobody talking about the benefits of how portable the Radar is. My studio is in the basement of my house... now of course that brings some serious limitations to the range of acoustics I can capture... but my Radar has changed all that. I can record absolutely anywhere, and I have. I've recorded shows in almost every venue in town, I've been in warehouses, other studios, artist's homes, art galleries, outside, even in an olympic sized swimming pool... With the help of a friend I've been able to haul all the gear I require to do this in the back of my humble Ford Festiva. I can record anywhere that has a plug, and then bring it all back home to mix it. I am now an acoustics slut. I can't record in the same room twice. Every one of the albums I record sounds different, because each one was recorded in a different space. I don't think I will ever want to own a proper sized studio, because I'm afraid I'll just get bored of the way it sounds, no matter how nice the room is. Just give me a really nice control room to mix in.

I guess my question to you is how practical would this be with a 2" machine?

Of course the other digital recorders are just as portable and can provide you with the same benefits, but honestly, I know how to crash the Tascam machine in under 20 seconds, The Mackie is far too limited when it comes to it's I/O, the Alesis just doesn't sound as good, and give me a break... a good Pro-Tools system is not portable since it requires you to haul a freakin' monitor around with it...

So... my argument isn't about digital being better than analog, I love them both... it's not about backup formats.... it's not about "the future of recording"... it's actually not about anything technical... quite simply, the Radar has made recording fun for me. Not to mention that being able to do high quality, on-location recording has also really helped set me aside from all the other engineers in town.

just my 2 cents...

I might as well throw in that I really enjoy my job... even though I have to hear about people's problems with their machine, I always manage to solve their problem in the end and I've had the chance to chat about recording with some very interesting people like Rudy Van Gelder, David Fridmann, Larry Levine, etc etc...

take care everyone...

RADAR 24

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Looks like you are having lot of fun...
Yes, it would be impossible to do mobile recording with 2" tape machine without truck and everything.
I know a band from Croatia that mixed in Dave Fridmann's studio recently,
they where asked to record everything to 2" tapes because he prefers to mix from it.
Now, don't get upset, I am sure he uses Radar too.

RADAR 24

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Goodness no...

I'm actually sure David Fridmann does most of his recordings on 2". I've read in an interview that he likes to sync up a whole bunch of different formats together. He probably has to considering how many tracks he requires for the projects he works on.

Funny thing is, he actually owns a Radar 1. Which is the 16bit machine from the early 90s. Great machine for it's time... very compressed and "rock" sounding, if that makes any sense. The few times I spoke to him he always showed great resistance to the thought of upgrading to the Radar 24.... he's very attached to his machine.

RADAR 24

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As I said,
I heard it from band only, not from him...
I can understand if he is attached to his tools, and even if this tools are not perfect. Perfect is just another word for boring in most cases nowdays.
I own couple of early digital reverb machines. I like that sound more then anything...I don't even know what type of conversion they do and I don't really want to know...
So, it might be the same thing with his Radar1...
But, maybe you know something about N... converters that I heard of being good option for Radar, if working 24/96?
Sorry about the grammar.

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