newberry wrote:How often does Chinese medicine work?

I'm getting acupuncture treatment now for bell's palsy. The procedure is definitely better than the Western alternative, which is to hope for the best.

They say it is an energy. A life force that exists in everything and that the trained can harness it utilising blocked energy from themselves and drawing it from the earth and the air etc etc

If it's an energy that can be drawn from the Earth and air, why can't it be measured? Or can it be?

Those who are instantly dismissing chi often seem to be coming from the standpoint that science has discovered all there is to know and so anything that hasn't got an instrument to measure it yet can't possibly exist.

This sounds like a straw man argument. I very highly doubt that anyone here arguing against Chi believes that "science had discovered all there is to know". Anyone who believes that doesn't know anything about science. I'm skeptical of Chi because there doesn't appear to be a shred of evidence to show that it exists. If anyone has any, I'll gladly look at it.

Also let's not forget that the scientifically realised nature of the fabric of the universe (with quantum theory as far as it can be understood) does seem to have been pre empted by, oh, thousands of years by deep thinkers, meditators in the far east - who weren't using 20th Century instruments. I imagine that the science inquisition around here will dismiss that as coincidence - pure fluke - but I'm inclined to think that's just western arrogance and maybe, just maybe, a little bit of fear.

Could you please elaborate on this--what do you mean by "preempted"? Maybe you could provide a specific example?

"Science inquisition"? Is asking for definitions and evidence an "inquisition"? Is questioning the reality of Chi heretical?

However, types who use this stuff seem to have something (which may be psychological) that makes them stronger and healthier.

I agree with the above. I have no doubt that proponents of Chi sincerely believe that Chi makes them stronger and/or healthier. And as you point out that very well may be psychological.

Christians tend to be emotionally stunted immature freaks - my mam and dad included.

You lost me there.

They don't (or most don't), they describe something that in a way science can be said to support (the interconnection of all things and all being energy blah blah).

Science will support anything if the evidence is there. Lots of scientific discoveries seemed strange or outlandish at first, but the evidence held up. Science doesn't dismiss things because they're Eastern, or weird; only because of lack of evidence.

Think of chi as chutzpah, or 'the zone', or zen state, or gameface -- applied to the resting mind with regard to health and well being as well as the performance of circus tricks or the defense of restauranteurs under attack by street hoods.

Does Chi mean "concentrate" or "focus"? If so, I believe in it. Or is it a supernatural energy force? Or a natural energy force?

Western medicine over the past 50 years has recognized that a positive mental state combined with low stress can speed recovery, increase longevity, and generally make for a happier dude.

I agree. Western medicine has long acknowledged the mind-body connection.

I'm getting acupuncture treatment now for bell's palsy. The procedure is definitely better than the Western alternative, which is to hope for the best.

I sincerely hope the treatment works for you. I would respectfully disagree though, that the acupuncture is "definitely better" than the alternative (even if there is no effective Western treatment; if neither works, the acupuncture is not better). If acupuncture can effectively treat Bell's Palsy, I'm all for it.

If you are looking at these concepts, look for the 'westernized' version...orgone. Wilhelm Reich.

rayj wrote:If you are looking at these concepts, look for the 'westernized' version...orgone. Wilhelm Reich.

See the blue light.

"You're searching for the key? I've got the key for you!"

I've seen my aikido instructor do incredible physical things by focusing. You can call it focusing his chi or focusing his concentration and muscles in an incredibly precise way. I see no difference. But I do see the results, which are impressive and definitely not "set-piece magic tricks." There was no set-up, no optical illusions. And he was a college buddy of mine before he was my aikido instructor, so I feel confident that he wasn't hiding some Freemasons-level secrets of duping the uninitiated. He was simply doing exactly what he said he was - making his arm unbendable, making his body unmoveable, etc. (All within extreme, but still natural and reasonable, limits.)

As for Chinese medicine, the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicines, part of the National Institutes of Health, has conducted rigorously controlled trials of acupuncture and found strong evidence of efficacy for particular patients, especially those experiencing pain and nausea due to chemotherapy.

I won't go so far as to say that it works because it is changing invisible rivers of chi energy in the body, but Western-style evidence suggests it is altering patterns of neurotransmitter and neurohormone emission, uptake, and distribution, thus altering the nervous system. Is this is functionally different than chi? Perhaps it's simply a methodological and semantic difference.

Chi doesn't have to be thought of in the same terms as "The Force" from Star Wars, as John C3 eloquently and ironically described. What if it's just bioelectricity? I think it's a mistake to dismiss it out of hand out of an otherwise healthy and generally skeptical attitude. It doesn't belong in the same realm as unicorns and pyrokinesis.

So, the evidence that this undefined "energy" exists is that a dude can walk on lightbulbs.

How about something easy, like, here, make the penny on this scale weigh less, or make this asian mystic on the scale weigh less, or do anything that isn't a transparently phony gimmick?

Acupuncture clearly works as a surgery anesthetic in practice, but it is probably more like distracting the attention of the nervous system than directing chi.

In the same way you can't stare at two objects at the same time, your pain sense probably can't feel acute pain in two places at the same time, so you distract the pain sense with the stimulation of the needles, and while it's distracted, you remove the wart or whatever.

That there isn't a calibrated scientific explanation for something is no reason to believe in magic.

steve wrote:Acupuncture clearly works as a surgery anesthetic in practice, but it is probably more like distracting the attention of the nervous system than directing chi.

In the same way you can't stare at two objects at the same time, your pain sense probably can't feel acute pain in two places at the same time, so you distract the pain sense with the stimulation of the needles, and while it's distracted, you remove the wart or whatever.

See my post above. Acupuncture has been shown to work for more indications than anesthesia and not because of some simple "distraction." It's not fully understood how it works yet, admittedly. But it is changing the nervous system in some more complex way.

As for making a penny weigh less, that's not possible. How could it be? Look, some of these demonstrations are no doubt bogus. But real focus of energy and effort to bring about remarkable, but realistic, physical feats is possible and I've seen it performed by people I know and trust.

steve wrote:That there isn't a calibrated scientific explanation for something is no reason to believe in magic.

I'm with you on this, but there are also some unfortunate limits to classic scientific inquiry. I'm not into any belief in 'magic', but I do think there is a lot we will have a hard time explaining.

I've seen my aikido instructor do incredible physical things by focusing. You can call it focusing his chi or focusing his concentration and muscles in an incredibly precise way. I see no difference.

If there is no difference, then maybe Chi doesn't exist? Humans are capable of impressive physical feats, and I'm sure concentration and discipline and training make a big difference. What makes you think Chi exists?

What if it's just bioelectricity?

Then it would be a simple matter to measure and demonstrate, no? Would a Chi master have "more" Chi (especially if Bruce Dickinson was present)? I still don't understand if Chi is natural (as opposed to supernatural) energy, or something mystical or religious, or simply means "focused concentration."

But real focus of energy and effort to bring about remarkable, but realistic, physical feats is possible and I've seen it performed by people I know and trust.

I agree with the above. What does it have to do with Chi? How do you know Chi is involved?