Juice: I agree that parents should be getting accurate, thorough information from doctors and schools and the government, and maybe they aren't. I wish everyone was well informed, and also rational and skeptical. Of course vaccinations are not 100% safe in every case, but it's important to look at the risk/benefit ratio. We used to have huge problems with polio and smallpox, now not so much.

I don't want to get too personal or get into a touchy issue, so it's fine if you don't want to respond to this, but would you mind sharing the evidence that your brother's epilepsy was caused by vaccines? I don't mean to imply that it wasn't, I have no idea. But one thing I've seen a lot of is assuming, without good evidence, that vaccines cause serious problems. I'm not saying they never do, only that we shouldn't jump to conclusions (not saying you are, but others certainly have).

If there is evidence that vaccines can cause epilepsy, of course that should be clearly stated to everyone getting vaccines, or perhaps the vaccine should be taken off the market.

Why would the school care? Here's a NYT article excerpt that might give an indication. Let me ask you, why do you think schools are adamant about vaccines?

But scientists and public health officials say they are alarmed by the surge of attention to an idea without scientific merit. The anti-thimerosal campaign, they say, is causing some parents to stay away from vaccines, placing their children at risk for illnesses like measles and polio.

"It's really terrifying, the scientific illiteracy that supports these suspicions," said Dr. Marie McCormick, chairwoman of an Institute of Medicine panel that examined the controversy in February 2004.

Experts say they are also concerned about a raft of unproven, costly and potentially harmful treatments - including strict diets, supplements and a detoxifying technique called chelation - that are being sold for tens of thousands of dollars to desperate parents of autistic children as a cure for "mercury poisoning."

I'm no expert on vaccinations or mercury or autism. I have lots of bad things to say about big drug companies and other large corporations. I'm not saying vaccines are perfect and should be used carelessly. What I'm saying is that these are really important issues that should be looked at rationally, critically, and scientifically, so we can all make our own careful decisions. I sometimes see a knee-jerk reaction against vaccines and other elements of Western medicine by people who are sometimes quick to embrace "alternative" medicine with little or no skepticism.

Here's an analogy: It's common to hear people say they are afraid of flying in planes, and some even avoid planes because of this fear. Now IIRC, it's far more likely that one will die in a car crash, but I don't recall ever hearing anyone say that they're afraid of traveling in cars. I think this kind of "gut feeling" comes into play with vaccines; they seem scary and dangerous (like planes can), but as far as risk/benefit goes, I'm pretty sure vaccines are quite safe.

I'm happy to look at any evidence to the contrary; I could be wrong about vaccines. I just hope everyone would look at these issues objectively and critically instead of jumping to conclusions.

I think there are issues relating to the epi study methods. Most epi drug studies of drug effects are done on 20 - 30 year old men unless it is a gender related treatment ie cervical cancer. The results are then scaled down to a body mass index and a dosage is created for children and woman of successfuly tested drugs.

Children are seldom used in studies (except terminal childhood deseases). Children have special medical issues some of which are not well understood including how they metablize exposue to pestisides and heavy metals. Adults migh store them in fats children might store the same in bone or tissue based on the age and phyical grouth factors of the child at the time the drugs are issued. Adults have stableized due to the fact that they are no longer growing and creating body tissues in the same way. As well the difference in body size may change the exposue levels in ways we do not understand yet.

Thus mecury exposue level in a adult tested might have little or no effect but in a child there are unknown issues. Mecury that occurs now in the enviroment is not usally of natural origin in fish and water it many times is the result of industral waste processes.

We know mecury in high levels can cause brain effects "mad hatters" desease (a desease in the turn of the century hat busness that used mercury in the industral process).

It is howeaver a logical leap to the mecury in the vaccines causing problems but it does not have to be in there anyway so why risk it. By the time we would have proof positive either way would take many years of study.

newberry wrote:Experts say they are also concerned about a raft of unproven, costly and potentially harmful treatments - including strict diets, supplements and a detoxifying technique called chelation - that are being sold for tens of thousands of dollars to desperate parents of autistic children as a cure for "mercury poisoning."

I thought that chelation therapy was well accepted, when properly administered. It's been around for 100 years, and according to GenerationRescue.org ( autism advocacy site ), major insurance companies like Aetna and Blue Cross cover the treatment.

It is howeaver a logical leap to the mecury in the vaccines causing problems but it does not have to be in there anyway so why risk it. By the time we would have proof positive either way would take many years of study.

From the NYT:

In July 1999, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Public Health Service released a joint statement urging vaccine makers to remove thimerosal as quickly as possible. By 2001, no vaccine routinely administered to children in the United States had more than half of a microgram of mercury - about what is found in an infant's daily supply of breast milk.

I hope all the anti-vaccine folks are against breast-feeding. Maybe god is the big drug company in the sky.

Earlier the idea of a conspiracy theory was brought up, also studies by Geier claiming mercury/vaccine link. Here's more from the NYT article:

"There's certainly not a conspiracy here," she said. "And we would never consider not acknowledging information or evidence that would have a bearing on children's health."

In 2003, spurred by parents' demands, the C.D.C. asked the Institute of Medicine, an arm of the National Academy of Sciences and the nation's most prestigious medical advisory group, to review the evidence on thimerosal and autism.

In a report last year, a panel convened by the institute dismissed the Geiers' work as having such serious flaws that their studies were "uninterpretable." Some of the Geiers' mathematical formulas, the committee found, "provided no information," and the Geiers used basic scientific terms like "attributable risk" incorrectly.

In contrast, the committee found five studies that examined hundreds of thousands of health records of children in the United States, Britain, Denmark and Sweden to be persuasive.

A study by the World Health Organization, for example, examined the health records of 109,863 children born in Britain from 1988 to 1997 and found that children who had received the most thimerosal in vaccines had the lowest incidence of developmental problems like autism.

Whatever the truth is about mercury and autism, I want to know what it is. But let's use good science and solid facts and evidence, and not make claims based on anecdotal evidence or knee-jerk reactions.

It's a known fact that children have severe reactions to vaccines. They actually have government programs set up for these cases.

http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/DisabledPeo ... G_10026664

Epilepsy is caused by encephalitis, which is one of the reactions from MMR or DTP shots.

I really think though that more research needs to be conducted into causes of these cases though at least, and maybe until then the public should be warned. I don't know many parents who would want their kid considered an "acceptable loss"

"It's really terrifying, the scientific illiteracy that supports these suspicions..."

to me,
It's really terrifying, the scientific inadequacy we have if we can't keep this from happening.

But, I want to make clear that I'm not convinced that mercury in the vaccines is the cause, as opposed to mercury in our environment and food.

I've learned a lot from author David Kirby's site, evidence of harm. He's getting many positive reviews for his book on this subject.

juice wrote:But, I want to make clear that I'm not convinced that mercury in the vaccines is the cause, as opposed to mercury in our environment and food.

Yes, this is my point. Let's find out what is actually going on if at all possible, instead of jumping to conclusions. One criticism of the Geier studies, according to the NYT, was that he started with the answer that he wanted and then looked for "facts" to support his preconceived agenda (much like a certain U.S. Administration).

Let's say for the sake of this argument, it is mercury in the environment that causes autism (there is evidence of mercury in fish, if I'm not mistaken), and vaccines have absolutely nothing to do with it. If that's the case, then a lot of people are wasting their time vilifying vaccinations, which are likely (as far as I know) to be doing much more good than harm, instead of fighting the real cause, in this hypothetical case, environmental exposure to mercury (to use the Bush analogy again, we went after Iraq, not an imminent threat, instead of going after Al Qaeda, Iran, North Korea, etc).

It's a known fact that children have severe reactions to vaccines. They actually have government programs set up for these cases.

Do you believe the bad outweighs the good, as far as vaccines are concerned? Should we ban some or all vaccines? Many people have severe reactions to certain plants and foods too. I think we have to look at the risk/benefit ratio. How do we keep people from getting polio and other conditions that vaccines can prevent?

I really think though that more research needs to be conducted into causes of these cases though at least, and maybe until then the public should be warned. I don't know many parents who would want their kid considered an "acceptable loss"

There has been a lot of research done, but I'm sure there's tons more to do. I agree that warnings should be given when there are significant, known risks.

to me,
It's really terrifying, the scientific inadequacy we have if we can't keep this from happening.

Science is far from perfect, and certainly can't solve all our problems. If you know of a non-scientific way of curing polio, I'd like to hear it. The scientific method is the best way that I know of to study diseases and treatments. Of course studies can be gamed, and science is limited. But what better way is there?

What should be done for people who are severely, even dangerously mentally ill (Daniel Johnston comes to mind)?. Pharmaceutical drugs can help some people with depression quite a bit, but some might suffer serious side effects and some may experience only a slight improvement, if any at all. So what should we do? Give them a cup of herbal tea and align their chakras? Science doesn't have a perfect cure for mental illness, but no one else does either. When it comes to diseases and other conditions, we often have to choose the least evil. If we banned vaccines I think we'd be much worse off.

Mercury is the second most poisonous metal.

Regardless of if it's used as a non-necessary component of a dental amalgam or as a non-necessary preservative in vaccines, it seems a little stupid to put it in your system.

Usually when someone in the senate slips a provision in a domestic security legislation to protect big pharma, it leads me to believe something is up.