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Minotaur029 wrote:

itchy mcgoo wrote:God, if I could have the hours of my life back that were spent driving around in pick-up trucks listening to Tom Waits (and the ever-present starry-eyed monologue espousing his genius)...jesus. I think I've taken five driving trip vacations in pick-up trucks where I was tortured with that affected granny spazz whiskey moaning of Tom Waits. I threw copies of Swordfishtrobone and Rain Dogs out the window of one of these pick-up trucks in Jasper. I never litter but forgave myself for soiling this pristine wilderness.

I don't doubt your hatred of Tom Waits, but how much of this anger is just a reaction to Tom Waits nerd fellatio?

I guess I'm extremely guilty of buying into his faux nostalgia as I am the rare music nerd that isn't too crazy about Tom Waits beyond the '70s (most Waits nuts like the artsier '80s material as you well know). In the '70s though...not that I lived through the '70s or anything...a smoky bar like the one he recorded in for Nighthawks at the Diner smacks not of nostalgia, but rather just smacks me. It seems just right for its time and place.

Ultimately, I liked him better when he wasn't gargling gravel in his gullet like so many sparrows...a time when epileptic sea captains weren't playing accordions all over his records. Again, fault my nostalgia.

I agree. I love the earlier records more than the later stuff, though Swordfishtrombones, Rain Dogs and Frank's Wild Year's still kick ass.

itchy mcgoo wrote:He is absolutely doing what he loves and people respond, deeply.

It's a great life and good for him. I hear he drives a late 60's Barracuda, so super good for him.

Quite simply, I truly dislike his music, his heavy-handed schtick, the working-class theater of it and would rather listen to Neurosis.

Do I see sincerity in his songs? I think Tom Waits paints the picture he wishes and it is certainly truthful to him. To me, it is cloyingly overwrought and schtick-ridden and difficult to not disregard the entire package because there is such a fucking elaborate stupid package.

I know that people who tell me they love me with Hallmark cards really do love me--I just wish they'd spell it out in pudding or flames, you know?

Sure. I'd rather listen to Neurosis too, most of the time.

And I see why you dislike Tom Waits, I just don't think it makes him fake, or makes his music a schtick...or makes his fans faux libertines.

itchy mcgoo wrote:Tanx, you've got to kill me because I don't like this minstrel act bullshit?
Baby, we're married. You won't get rid of me that easy.

Well, maybe not kill but at least take the Tanx lovin' down to 90% which will probably equate to death.

Perfect tunes for white collar fake libertines. Faux-bo.

I don't know what this arrangement of words means.

I'm the only person I know (IRL) that has even heard of Tom Waits. He's just some American fella I stumbled across one day. I think you dislikers are reacting to the way Tom Waits fans react to him. I'm totally innocent and naive in this respect. I just like them songs he sings, innit.

No, really, it's quite easy to hate the music and the obvious schtick without having experienced how the fans compound it.

Fair enough.

Hug it out?

i do think tom waits creates a persona that has little to do with his "real life". it doesn't bother me. most performers do. you may have noticed john fogerty wasn't really "born on the bayou". see the "faking an accent" thread. that's why every book isn't an autobiography. tom waits comes from la, one of the few places in the u.s. that i think he avoids singing about. i think in a way he comes from the acting tradition.

itchy mcgoo wrote:Quite simply, I truly dislike his music, his heavy-handed schtick, the working-class theater of it and would rather listen to Neurosis.

your prerogative. but i would just like to note that neurosis could be accused of cultivating some kind of hunter-gatherer badass-survivalist tribal-psychedelic warrior shtick.


if tom waits lived the life he sang about in his songs:

woke up. the steam train had ground to a halt. the rails had been destroyed by a meteor. had to hitchhike my way to a telegram so i could contact my samoan desperado friend. upon his arrival i climbed in his sidecar and we took the swiftest route across state lines.


if neurosis lived the life they sing about in their songs:

woke up. sharpened my spear. joined with my brothers in ritual chant while we inhaled the fumes of ayahuasca. we journeyed out beyond the ridge, where we spotted the mammoth. killed it and painted ourselves with its blood.


really, both tom waits and neurosis live more like this:

woke up. ate cereal. paid the gas bill. took the kid to chuck e. cheeses, then got a new duvet at bed bath and beyond.

Ha. Great work.

bigc wrote:What makes you say his persona is pure calculation?

Things like this press conference and interviews I've read, for starters. He makes a big production of being eccentric, and I don't buy into it. I feel the same way about Crispin Glover and that guitarist from the abysmal Red Hot Chili Peppers who people fawn over.

That is not to say that I think Tom Waits is some sort of fraud because he doesn't just write and perform songs that are literally about his everyday life. That would be a stupid thing to say.

His attempts to be seen as an authentic embodiment of his musical schtick are really irritating. In another post on this forum, the knowledgeable Brett Ralph opined that Bruce Springsteen's "authenticity" is as calculated as Meat Loaf's bombast, but Springsteen is largely taken seriously. I feel the same way about Tom Waits. He's like Kiss with pump organs.

His music owes obvious debts to that of folks who preceded him (Brecht/Weill, Beefheart, Louis Armstrong) and there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but his apologists seem to think his records--particularly the ones starting with Swordfishtrombones--are full of "far out," "experimental" music with no precedent. That's annoying.

I like most of his records, but his public persona and the die-hard fans who buy into it are unbearable in equal measure.

placeholder wrote:

bigc wrote:What makes you say his persona is pure calculation?

Things like this press conference and interviews I've read, for starters. He makes a big production of being eccentric, and I don't buy into it. I feel the same way about Crispin Glover and that guitarist from the abysmal Red Hot Chili Peppers who people fawn over.

That is not to say that I think Tom Waits is some sort of fraud because he doesn't just write and perform songs that are literally about his everyday life. That would be a stupid thing to say.

His attempts to be seen as an authentic embodiment of his musical schtick are really irritating. In another post on this forum, the knowledgeable Brett Ralph opined that Bruce Springsteen's "authenticity" is as calculated as Meat Loaf's bombast, but Springsteen is largely taken seriously. I feel the same way about Tom Waits. He's like Kiss with pump organs.

His music owes obvious debts to that of folks who preceded him (Brecht/Weill, Beefheart, Louis Armstrong) and there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but his apologists seem to think his records--particularly the ones starting with Swordfishtrombones--are full of "far out," "experimental" music with no precedent. That's annoying.

I like most of his records, but his public persona and the die-hard fans who buy into it are unbearable in equal measure.

Eh...his persona is pretty non-public for someone of his stature. He doesn't seem to dig for press in the least. I get the impression that he gets bored more than that he needs attention.

Fans...yeah...they can be annoying. Never stopped me from rocking Metallica though. I can't remember a time when anyone I now has said that Waits was 'out there' or 'original'. Maybe just environments...who knows.

world of pee wrote:really, both tom waits and neurosis live more like this:

woke up. ate cereal. paid the gas bill. took the kid to chuck e. cheeses, then got a new duvet at bed bath and beyond.

This is true. And funny. I just mentioned Neurosis because they happened to be what I was listening to, not by some way of an example of a musician embodying their work.

That kind of stuff is not important to me. It seems important to Tom Waits. And Norwegian Black Metal bands.

Love him or not, we can agree there's a pretty heavy schtick there. It resonates for a lot of people, the charm is lost on me.