Rick Reuben wrote:

happyandbored wrote:No fit and fully-functioning individual willingly let's their life go to hell.

Come on. If they were 'fit and functional', they wouldn't belong in the category of people I'm talking about. I'm talking about people who are not fit and functional and did not end up that way because a Prozac deficit in their brains caused their malaise. If the people I'm talking about were capable of conscious planning, they'd be kilometers ahead of the people I'm talking about.

I've tried to read it several times now, but that whole paragraph, especially the last sentence makes absolutely no sense.

So the people you are talking about are not fit and functional. The people you are talking about have a 'malaise'. If the people you are talking about in the malaise were capable of 'conscious planning' - in other words, not in a malaise - they'd be doing much than the people you're talking about? The one's in the malaise?! WTF?! You mean of course, doing better than someone with 'good' depression, ah yes...

But anyway...

It seems you're discussing a hypothetical group of people who feel sad and don't do anything (two of the main symptoms of depression) but aren't actually depressed. They're just sad enough to convince them they need to go to the doctors and get some pills, but not quite sad enough to meet your completely unqualified definition of a 'truly' depressed person.

Well yes, that hypothetical group of lazy scum that exists solely in your mind, yes they 'deserve' to be depressed.

Rick Reuben wrote:If you think that everyone who thinks they're depressed or exhibits the symptoms of depression deserves professional mental health care, then we have nothing to discuss.

Hmmm, that sentence can be read two ways. Do you genuinely mean that or are you implying that not everyone should have access to mental health care? It's a little unclear.

Regardless, I just don't think you're particularly qualified to be mouthing off about who should and should not take anti-depressants.

There is a drug called paracetemol, you may have heard of it. Should that only be prescribed to people with migraines, rather than all those 'fakers' who only have a mild headache? Afterall, perhaps that pain is trying to tell them something.

Rick Reuben wrote: Think of it like this: there are a lot of people who are bad at math. Some of them don't study hard, some of them just don't have the brainpower. Should we just give them all math pills so they can kid themselves that they're good at math? Should we develop pills that make everyone a guitar virtuoso? Some people are inferior to others when measured by certain criteria, and those are the breaks. If they feel poorly about themselves because of their inferiority, then those are still the breaks.

There are also people that are good at maths and then wake up one day and find their mind just doesn't work like it used to. Your absurd examples bear absolutely no relevance to the topic in hand, since there is already a good way to improve maths and guitar skills - practice and lots of it. However, even if there was a drug that could somehow magically improve people's abilities (assuming affordability and no side effects), I find it a little weird that you're against that.

In fact, there is already a drug that in small quantities can aid alertness and concentration, caffeine. Do you have a problem with people drinking coffee?!

Rick Reuben wrote:Meds that block self-awareness from kicking in are potentially a crutch. There is good pain that should not be shirked. A message is being sent by that pain. I will never be convinced that meds are not over-prescribed in this country.

Most modern SSRIs don't do anything that blocks self-awareness. Minor tranquilizers like Xanax do, but to someone with chronic anxiety (ie, they are overly self-aware) they can be a lifesaver. The fact that you started off talking about 'Prozac deficit' suggests you have absolutely no idea how these drugs work.

I share most of your concerns, but instead of directing you're criticisms against the pharmaceutical industry or your own government like you usually do, you're directing it against people with depression. I find that offensive.

Trying to worm your way out of it by claiming that you're only criticising those that brought it on themselves, makes you no better than someone who thinks the clinically obese should just 'get more exercise' instead of having their stomach stapled. You're being driven by the same need to judge and losing sight of the real issue, which is whether that treatment will improve that person's quality of life.

The most recent research on SSRIs indicates that the brain can suffer an actual, physical injury in situations of extreme emotional duress.

The brain is used by its bearer to think things out and cope with whatever.

To allow coping, the brain uses neurotransmitters to send signals within itself.

Serotonin (a neurotransmitter) has to be 'held' in receptors for the brain to use it.

When the brain burns through an inordinate amount of serotonin in short order, those receptors are weakened and start to do a bad job of holding serotonin.

The brain ends up doing a poor job of sending signals at the very time its bearer needs it the most.

SSRIs make those receptors 'sticky' again, which allows the brain to retain serotonin longer and more efficiently. Over time, activity returns to something approaching normality (though perhaps never what it was before the injury). At this time (6mos, a year, maybe a longer period of time after treatment began), the user can try being weaned (with medical supervision) from the drug.

Recovery from this condition is possible without drugs. You can also just wait for a cut to stop bleeding on its own. But it can take forfuckingever, and untended recovery is not necessarily wise in either case.

To call SSRIs 'not crap' in this application is like calling a splint and physical therapy 'not crap.'

I went through a period of depression about 12 years ago. It was horrible, I could barely function day to day without being overcome by sadness and bursting into tears at inappropriate times. I know people around me were frustrated by this because they didn't know how to help. I was prescribed Zoloft, and also went to a therapist. The Zoloft certainly helped, and I suffered no real ill effects from it. Without the Zoloft, I literally felt like I was stuck in a rut mentally, constantly spinning my wheels but getting nowhere, just digging myself in deeper into depression. The Zoloft certainly helped stabilize me enough to be able to get a handle on what was going on inside my head. At no time did I feel like my feelings and thoughts were being smothered, I still felt highs and lows, I just did not get overwhelmed by them, and consequently I was able to deal with them in a better way.

I had a few "friends" who, when they found out I was on Zoloft, called it a crutch and said I should not be taking it. These people are no longer my friends, as it seemed to me that they weren't really looking out for what was best for me, in fact I'd say these "friends" were really undermining my getting past the depression.

Calling anti-depressant drugs a crutch, when the person using them would be in bad shape without them, is uncalled for, unnecessary, and insensitive, at the very least.

Would you deny insulin to a diabetic, or anti-convulsive drugs to someone with epilepsy?

Clocker Bob/Rick Reuben is starting to sound like Marsup'.

It's a funny old virtual world.

I have to say that I agree with the Reubens on this one. I'm fucking sick and tired of people who have, for lack of a better word, "romanticized" depression and the act of taking antidepressants. Fuck them.

Rick Reuben wrote:

happyandbored wrote:It seems you're discussing a hypothetical group of people who feel sad and don't do anything (two of the main symptoms of depression) but aren't actually depressed.

Yes, and this is hardly a 'hypothetical' group of people. They are people who have made minor or major messes out of their lives but were not propelled to their fate by legitimate brain chemical depression. Think of the people who turn to street crime because they can't or won't make an honest living. Then they get arrested and end up in a jail cell. Bet they're depressed as hell in that jail cell. Bet that when they get out and they have a prison record hanging around their neck, they're still depressed.

I could write a dozen different scenarios to cover people like this- they're called 'I Made Bad Choices And Now I'm Depressed' people. The mental health system needs to put people like them at the back of the line. Some people just fuck their lives up, and I personally don't feel like giving them the excuse of "Oh, but I should have been on medication. Then I would have made good choices". To hell with that. These people made bad choices because the bad choice appeared like a good choice to their stupid and lazy brains, and they jumped at the bad choice, and now they understand the consequences in hindsight. They needed to try harder, not reach for a pill.

happyandbored wrote:Well yes, that hypothetical group of lazy scum that exists solely in your mind, yes they 'deserve' to be depressed.

What are you talking about?? This class of people exists solely in my mind?? Society is overrun with them. Where do you live, at the north pole?

happyandbored wrote:Trying to worm your way out of it by claiming that you're only criticising those that brought it on themselves, makes you no better than someone who thinks the clinically obese should just 'get more exercise' instead of having their stomach stapled.

You're mixing up the people I'm talking about. In the case of the obese, there are many who do not suffer from gland problems. There are fat people who went to McDonald's too many times. I see these fat parents dragging their fat kids out of the McDonald's down the street from me every day, fucking child abusers. Are they all 'victims' of obesity? Hell no. They're dumb people who have made bad choices, many of them. They need to eat less and get more exercise.

Is anyone accountable for their own actions in your world, or does everyone get to blame 'lack of health care' for all their mistakes?

The fact is though, that even though, yes, there are "people who bring it on themselves", people who are legitimately depressed, get swept up in the net of "people who brought it on themselves" because most people have a hard time distinguishing one from the other.

Also, once you descend into depression, whether brought on by your own action or inaction, or due to some innate biological cause, it really becomes it's own entity. This is why it is usually recommended that you get mental health therapy in addition to any drug therapy, to help you become self aware enough to make better life choices in the future.

Since I assume you don't know the complete life stories of people you've met who suffer from depression, obesity, diabetes, or any other health problem that can be caused by a combination of innate biological problems, bad choices, and bad luck, I suggest you get past judging people and their circumstances.

Another thing about depression is that a single bout of depression can certainly predispose you to having another bout of depression at another point, and it tends to get worse each time, because the pathway in your brain that depression follows has already been set. Hence, my comment about when I went through depression (multiple times, by the way) feeling as if my wheels were spinning without getting anywhere, and actually feeling like it was digging in deeper.

Nowadays, I certainly keep a close watch on this in myself, so I don't start going down that path, or if I do, that I get the help I need to not get in too deep.

Rick Reuben wrote:If you never let yourself bounce off the floor occasionally because the drugs hold you up like a safety net, you learn less, about yourself and about the world.

Bob, I do actually agree with you about a lot of what you're saying on this thread (and occasionally on others, believe it or not!), but I do think you're making a mistake here. My evidence maybe anecdotal, but my experience of the effects of SSRIs couldn't be characterised as being offered a "safety net". I think people often overestimate the effect of anti-depressants. If you're taking up to 40mg of Prozac (20mg being the "standard" dose), you really won't feel radically different, and you certainly won't find yourself mindlessly happy, or not experiencing profound feelings. Whilst it is true that the full scope of your moods may taper off a little at each end, you certainly don't become wrapped in cotton wool, shielded from the stresses and pains of existence. Prescribing more than 40mg is rare - I knew a girl on 80mg a day but she was annorexic, suicidal, and had made several attemtps on her life, so they really don't pass 40mg except in the most extreme of cases.

SSRIs are designed to protect you from the rock bottom trough that is absolute depression, the true and total low. Being in this state does not and can not help anyone. You cannot learn anything from it as you do not want to learn anything. You don't simply experience pain, suffering, misery - you become a vessel for it, a subject of it. You are so devoid of will or reason that you experience these feelings as the absolute, immovable truth, and are utterly incapable of using them, developing them, or learning from them, as you don't have the tools to do so. This is the exact state that leads to suicide.

I was on anti-depressants when my grandfather died. I can assure you that their effects did not prevent me from experiencing intense grief. As with anyone, the death of a dearly loved one affected me profoundly, yet happily I was able to learn from it in some ways as do others. It taught me things about my own mortality, and how to treat those I love, and also how strong I was capable of being. The SSRIs didn't prevent me from learning anything, although they did perhaps prevent me from reacting to this event in a way which was entirely negative - i.e. slipping in to a passive, hopeless depression.

ChristopherM wrote:I have to say that I agree with the Reubens on this one. I'm fucking sick and tired of people who have, for lack of a better word, "romanticized" depression and the act of taking antidepressants. Fuck them.

You mean like people have romanticized heroin addiction, because they feel it helps their creativity?

I'd say depression is anything but romanticized, at least in my case. It sucked. I definitely did not like being in that place. I hope I never get there again.

I can't think of anyone who has romanticized depression and the taking of anti-depressants.

Maybe some bad goth artists.

simmo wrote:

Rick Reuben wrote:If you never let yourself bounce off the floor occasionally because the drugs hold you up like a safety net, you learn less, about yourself and about the world.

Bob, I do actually agree with you about a lot of what you're saying on this thread (and occasionally on others, believe it or not!), but I do think you're making a mistake here. My evidence maybe anecdotal, but my experience of the effects of SSRIs couldn't be characterised as being offered a "safety net". I think people often overestimate the effect of anti-depressants. If you're taking up to 40mg of Prozac (20mg being the "standard" dose), you really won't feel radically different, and you certainly won't find yourself mindlessly happy, or not experiencing profound feelings. Whilst it is true that the full scope of your moods may taper off a little at each end, you certainly don't become wrapped in cotton wool, shielded from the stresses and pains of existence. Prescribing more than 40mg is rare - I knew a girl on 80mg a day but she was annorexic, suicidal, and had made several attemtps on her life.

SSRIs are designed to protect you from the rock bottom trough that is absolute depression, the true and total low. Being in this state does not and can not help anyone. You cannot learn anything from it as you do not want to learn anything. You don't simply experience pain, suffering, misery - you become a vessel for it, a subject of it. You are so devoid of will or reason that you experience these feelings as the absolute, immovable truth, and are utterly incapable of using them, developing them, or learning from them, as you don't have the tools to do so. This is the exact state that leads to suicide.

I was on anti-depressants when my grandfather died. I can assure you that their effects did not prevent me from experiencing intense grief. As with anyone, the death of a dearly loved one affected me profoundly, yet happily I was able to learn from it in some ways as do others. It taught me things about my own mortality, and how to treat those I love, and also how strong I was capable of being. The SSRIs didn't prevent me from learning anything, although they did perhaps prevent me from reacting to this event in a way which was entirely negative - i.e. slipping in to a passive, hopeless depression.

Simmo, I completely agree with everything you've said in this post.