Premier Rock Forum

Let me put it this way. For many years, I couldn't get into King Crimson. Everyone would say "Oh, 21st Century Schizoid Man!" I don't think it's very good at all... When I heard "Red" I was impressed by how timeless it is (well, half of the songs). We all have our opinions, but I'm not the only one who thinks "In the Court" is not a good album, yet the vast majority of KC fans I have met think it's their opus.

I avoided Genesis for many many years. All I knew was the 80's stuff. I just started listening to the 1970-81 stuff maybe 2 years ago. I had no idea it existed... in fact, I was ignorant of all the great progressive rock (Magma, UZ, Present, Henry Cow, oh, I could go on and on...). Why? Because 75% of people that say they like "prog rock" are talking about the most obvious (and really not that good) stuff like ELP, Jethro Tull, King Crimson (in the court), Yes (the song "roundabout"), etc.

What can I say. I mean, Asslie Simeon proves that most people like shitty music. The most popular music tends to be the shittiest crap ever. There are exceptions. I don't blame the people so much as the industry that assumes that most people are idiots...

That said, I can understand the hatred of Zappa. I'm sure many Zappa fans are into the "You can't do that on stage anymore" or other shitty stuff.

When I played keyboards for Fugazi, we'd often play "Little Umbrellas" for a sound check. Those guys knew the real deal.

capnreverb wrote:

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:
Who the FUCK can listen to "Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbeque" on Weasels, and say Zappa is crap?!?

Actually, calling a tune that is one of the reasons why I lean towards giving him a crap.

Eric Dolphy?

Zappa wishes.

Reading your rim job of zappa's catalogue makes me like him even less. It's like hearing deadheads go on and on.

The dude's music lacks sincerity.

His orchestral stuff is not that amazing.
His attempts at jazz where painful, and 99% of all fusion sucks, and his fusion falls in that 99%.
His records for the most part seem like comedy records.
His guitar solo's are quite good, but he talked shit about people who took guitar solo's. So, was he talking shit about himself?
His records are clever with lots of good playing and nice arrangements, but i feel like he is bullshitting me.
I like him as an outspoken activist, and overall thorn on societys values, but thats not music, it's politics.
There are some chioce guitar solo's on Joe's garage act 2-3. I still like Chunga's Revenge and some stuff from the One Size Fits All period, and Lumpy Gravy has it's moments .......... bit it all seems rather devoid of emotion and sincerity - two things i really need from my music.

Zappa seemed like god to me when I was 17, now he just seems like some bitter ol dude who fell short of what he could have done if he just droppped the joke crap and focused on the real dal. His buddy Don Van Vilet carried the real torch.

PS, Steve Vai sucks, so for that Zappa should get a crap vote.

You seriously like Lumpy Gravy and Joe's Garage Act 2-3? Now I'm starting to understand...

OK, I'll let you get back to listening to your Asia records...

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:
You seriously like Lumpy Gravy and Joe's Garage Act 2-3? Now I'm starting to understand...

OK, I'll let you get back to listening to your Asia records...

Thats the best you got?

Address the sincerity issue bro!

Ill pass on the Henry Cow wannabe backed Cheech and Chong party records.

No, actually if you read it right, i said some of the guitar solos on joes garage are all right. The rest of the lp(s) are total crap.

Now you go back and listen to your Marillion and Dream Theatre cd's.

Ill go listen to some Eric Dolphy.

Ill pass on the Henry Cow wannabe backed Cheech and Chong party records.

It's funny that you say that... Uh, I guess I have to get the Chris Cutler quote out again. Your beloved Henry Cow were influenced by Zappa.

Um, the first Henry Cow album came out in 1974. I love the guys, but they were pretty late on the scene. It's really far fetched to think that Zappa is a Henry Cow wannabe, unless of course, he had some sort of time machine...

Both Zappa and HC are influenced by modern composers... Stravinsky, Verese, blah blah...

I mean, I can understand if you didn't know this stuff pre-internet. But nowadays, you can research this stuff online. That is, if you are interested in the truth:

Chris Cutler wrote:We certainly didn't learn anything from them. I, for instance, would havre to go back to early Zappa, Beefheart, Barrett's Pink Floyd, Soft Machine, AMM, Sun Ra, Coltrane, Coleman, Stockhausen, Schoenberg and so on for influences. And for contemporary bands in the 70's, Magma, Faust, Samla Mammas Manna.

Address the sincerity issue bro!

You're confusing the lack of sincerity with humor and satire. I think satire can be sincere. I think someone who spent 18 hours a day composing music is quite sincere.

Reading your rim job of zappa's catalogue makes me like him even less.

Given the Cheese-Crimson crap you are enamoured with

Chris Cutler wrote:when they began to make big statements about their originality for improvising (around Jaimie Muir/Larks Tongues time) we found that frankly rather pathetic.

I actually prefer that you like Zappa even less. I haven't heard a stronger endorsement of Zappa than the fact that Capn-douche-bag liked them when he was 17 and doesn't anymore.

Your list of the "A list" progressive bands didn't even include Magma. One of the only bands that did something decent in 1969-70 and one of the few progressive bands that had any balls or extreme talent.

...I can't say that of KC, Genesis, or even my beloved Van Der Graaf Generator.... They wrote hippy music in 1969-70...

How much more sincere can you get than Waka/Jawaka? What's insincere about that one?

Well, Capn-douche-bag thinks your taking all this a little bit too seriously.

You name calling is the sound of a sacred cow being tipped over.

I'll get back to my discusion of Free Jazz, Rush, Robert Wyatt worship and 20th century string quartets where I belong.

Have a nice day.

capnreverb wrote:Well, Capn-douche-bag thinks your taking all this a little bit too seriously.

You name calling is the sound of a sacred cow being tipped over.

I'll get back to my discusion of Free Jazz, Rush, Robert Wyatt worship and 20th century string quartets where I belong.

Have a nice day.

Fair enough... And I'll get back to my deadhead, rim-job defense of Zappa. Sorry to be so offensive to such a swell guy. You sure didn't pull any punches... I'm sure it's a compliment to say that I'm licking the anus of Zappa's catalog, and I just took it the wrong way. Sometimes these internet "silent monologues" can be so misunderstood. Calling someone an ass licker is generally considered a compliment.

capnreverb wrote:reading your rim job of zappa's catalogue makes me like him even less. It's like hearing deadheads go on and on.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:Great argument. "This is bullshit". What great new worlds did The Sex Pistols open up? Ripping off 3 songs from a Peter Hammill solo album that was a satire of an arrogant rock star and making a musical career out of it? Or are you more enamoured by the junkie murderer? Not much of the Sex Pistols fame and noteriety comes from writing decent music, yet some consider them the holy grail of "punk". Give me a fucking break. Fuck the Sex Pistols and the retards that continue to emulate them.

I guess if you find songs with 3 bar chords fascinating, I can't tell you you're wrong. It's your opinion. I prefer artists that use more than 2 parameters in music composition. I like composers that work hard and create intricate and intelligent works. It's just that I like to buy a recording that I can listen to more than once, and not be like "Oh, yeah... 3 bar chords, 4/4 time. Got it" on the first listen.

I shouldn't even bother to respond to this...

I love your presumptuous and pretentious dismissal of my musical taste based on my admittedly liking one band.

OK, so you don't like the Sex Pistols. They aren't my favorite band by a longshot, and of course they influenced an awful lot of music I personally think is abysmal, but they were a fine rock band. I couldn't care less about Sid Vicious or the band's notoriety, and I couldn't care less about whether or not they're the "holy grail of 'punk'". What I care about is that they wrote several fine, catchy rock songs, all of which I like.

I guess I do find some songs with "3 bar chords" fascinating, and I find it really funny that you seem to be dismissing a lot of music as unintelligent because it isn't "sophisticated" or "complicated" enough. I mean, it's your criteria and your opinion, but to me it is a hilarious one. "No no no! I'm not gonna listen to this simple crap. I can't listen to this Sex Pistols record more than once! It's insincere retard music! Hand me that Yngwie (or Vai) album, man. He's a composer who works hard to create interesting, intelligent works! It's show-offy and complicated, so it must be intelligent! I have to listen to it over and over before I 'get it'!" To each his own, I guess.

The record-collector trivia recital re: Peter Hammill was really clever, though; really very clever.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:...the great political work that Zappa did so stupid chuckleheads could "write" songs about popping coochies.

Not to mention all the precedent-setting work Zappa did by "writing" songs about stuff like popping coochies, getting V.D. from hippies, drinking yellow snow, and various other tiresome and juvenile sex-and-bodily-function related nonsense.

placeholder wrote:

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:Great argument. "This is bullshit". What great new worlds did The Sex Pistols open up? Ripping off 3 songs from a Peter Hammill solo album that was a satire of an arrogant rock star and making a musical career out of it? Or are you more enamoured by the junkie murderer? Not much of the Sex Pistols fame and noteriety comes from writing decent music, yet some consider them the holy grail of "punk". Give me a fucking break. Fuck the Sex Pistols and the retards that continue to emulate them.

I guess if you find songs with 3 bar chords fascinating, I can't tell you you're wrong. It's your opinion. I prefer artists that use more than 2 parameters in music composition. I like composers that work hard and create intricate and intelligent works. It's just that I like to buy a recording that I can listen to more than once, and not be like "Oh, yeah... 3 bar chords, 4/4 time. Got it" on the first listen.

I shouldn't even bother to respond to this...

I love your presumptuous and pretentious dismissal of my musical taste based on my admittedly liking one band.

OK, so you don't like the Sex Pistols. They aren't my favorite band by a longshot, and of course they influenced an awful lot of music I personally think is abysmal, but they were a fine rock band. I couldn't care less about Sid Vicious or the band's notoriety, and I couldn't care less about whether or not they're the "holy grail of 'punk'". What I care about is that they wrote several fine, catchy rock songs, all of which I like.

I guess I do find some songs with "3 bar chords" fascinating, and I find it really funny that you seem to be dismissing a lot of music as unintelligent because it isn't "sophisticated" or "complicated" enough. I mean, it's your criteria and your opinion, but to me it is a hilarious one. "No no no! I'm not gonna listen to this simple crap. I can't listen to this Sex Pistols record more than once! It's insincere retard music! Hand me that Yngwie (or Vai) album, man. He's a composer who works hard to create interesting, intelligent works! It's show-offy and complicated, so it must be intelligent! I have to listen to it over and over before I 'get it'!" To each his own, I guess.

The record-collector trivia recital re: Peter Hammill was really clever, though; really very clever.

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:...the great political work that Zappa did so stupid chuckleheads could "write" songs about popping coochies.

Not to mention all the precedent-setting work Zappa did by "writing" songs about stuff like popping coochies, getting V.D. from hippies, drinking yellow snow, and various other tiresome and juvenile sex-and-bodily-function related nonsense.

Actually, this is what I said:

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:If your favorite band is The Sex Pistols, then yeah, you won't get it...

...I guess if you find songs with 3 bar chords fascinating, I can't tell you you're wrong.

Was I wrong? The Sex Pistols seem to be one of your favorite bands and you don't get Zappa. I can't tell you you're wrong. All's I'm sayin' is that people who like 3 chord rock songs aren't going to "get" Zappa. It's the whole "excesses" thing. You know... some guy works hard to write music, and people think it's "excessive" and that his time would be better spent on heroin and murder... or something non-musical...

Oh no, I made critical remark about the holy Sex Pistols. MTV tells me they invented punk, so I believe it. The movie was pretty good though. It's not often you see Neal Patrick Harris break free of his Dougie Hauser-ness. The other one with the Happy Mondays is my favorite... I mean, they have a guy in the band who just dances! How cool is that? And Ian Curtis watches some western cowboy movie and off's himself? (Kids, [and I'm talking to Interpol here], don't try this at home!)

Hey, look... I played keyboards for frieken Fugazi. I don't need to take this crap.

Hand me that Yngwie (or Vai) album, man. He's a composer who works hard to create interesting, intelligent works! It's show-offy and complicated, so it must be intelligent! I have to listen to it over and over before I 'get it'!" To each his own, I guess.

I don't personally like Yngwie or Vai. I do appreciate that they are talented, though. If it came to crap or not crap, I would vote not crap on both. My criteria aren't based on whether I like the music or not. It's more the intrinsic value in the music...

I guess that's what irks me a little. It may seem irrelevant to bring up the Sex Pistols, but I knew it was a case that many people (round here) would prefer 3 chord scratch to hard work. Thanks for proving it. It partially explains why almost half of the people here voted crap. The other explanation is that the people who vote crap are talking about Zappa stuff like "Broadway the Hard Way" or stuff that is crap.

Getting into Zappa is much like walking the streets of Paris. If you don't look out, you'll step on a lot of poop. If you're careful and dilligent, you can enjoy the beauty of that city without getting poop all over your creepers.

The way I see it, Zappa is not crap because his music will live on long after you and I are dead. He really is considered to be in a league with modern composers, and righfully so. You can't pick up a guitar and figure out how to play a Zappa record in 30 minutes.

I guess I do find some songs with "3 bar chords" fascinating, and I find it really funny that you seem to be dismissing a lot of music as unintelligent

The music industry loves you for this. You're their best customer. They like the 3 chord bands too...

Wernehm_Zackariaah wrote:Hey, look... I played keyboards for frieken Fugazi. I don't need to take this crap.

And I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and guess that them kicking you out five weeks into the tour had nothing to do with you drinking a shandy.