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I believe that smoking bans are selfish and retarded. That said, I would encourage businesses that didn't want smoking to prohibit it on their premises, for any reasons they like. If there is truly a market for non-smoking clubs, for example, they will flourish. Making it a legal matter is ridiculous.

Non-smokers are passionate about banning smoking. It is very important to them. Just not important enough that they will change their nightclubbing habits by refusing to frequent smoking venues. They would rather make the world change to suit them by bringing the police to bear on their prejudices. That is both childish and selfish.

I am not comfortable leaving matters of public health to market forces.

I am in agreement here, however:

Anthony J wrote:I'll go to the place where the band I want to see is playing, regardless of smoking policy/law.

Smog! At the smoke-saturated Empty Bottle! I can't wait!

bumble wrote:I am not comfortable leaving matters of public health to market forces.

Our health care system being market-driven is a bigger problem than whether or not someone smells of smoke after a night at the boozer.

And public health matters are almost entirely left to market forces. Why make such a trivial exception here? There are clearly bigger fish to fry.

This is one of those weird topics that brings out the idiocy in some of the most otherwise intelligent people I know. Smoking in bars or pubs or clubs is crazy. It's just fucking crazy. Defending it on any level is crazy. Having your "right" to smoke in a crowded public space taken away from you does not constitute an abuse of your freedoms. It is addressing a crazy activity, like drink driving.

To call the desire for wanting smoke free environments a mere "prejudice" is crazy. Unfortunately, as much as I'd like to stop attending stinky smoke filled venues, it isn't possible - at least not if I want to see any band that I like, or play a gig with my band, or just go to a pub or club whatsoever. I'm sure many people would love to stop going to places that allow this insane activity, but it just isn't that realistic. Lots of people take bar jobs, particularly to fund higher education, because the hours fit and you don't need good qualifications to do it. Somebody mentioned loud volume...in many venues which have loud levels of music, the bar staff are provided with ear plugs. I'm thinking gas masks wouldn't be as readily adopted.

And I don't know who said this, but having a No Smoking section of a pub is as useful as having a No Pissing section of a swimming pool.

People who smoke are addicted to cigarettes. The government has them tightly by the bollocks, and they are so confused by the whole matter that they think it has something to do with their rights.

Please, spare me.

This is not something the government should be able to control. Such a waste of time. So many more important things to tackle.

run joe, run wrote:This is one of those weird topics that brings out the idiocy in some of the most otherwise intelligent people I know. Smoking in bars or pubs or clubs is crazy. It's just fucking crazy.

Right, it's crazy to smoke during recreation. In a bar. Crazy. All of culture has been crazy since tobacco was first brought into a bar, in a bar joke about 400 years ago.

Defending it on any level is crazy. Having your "right" to smoke in a crowded public space taken away from you does not constitute an abuse of your freedoms. It is addressing a crazy activity, like drink driving.

I don't think there is a specific right to smoke. It being none of your business is where the rights come into it.

To call the desire for wanting smoke free environments a mere "prejudice" is crazy. Unfortunately, as much as I'd like to stop attending stinky smoke filled venues, it isn't possible - at least not if I want to see any band that I like, or play a gig with my band, or just go to a pub or club whatsoever.

So... it is possible, you just won't sacrifice anything to do it. That tells us something about its importance to you. Exactly the point of my post.

I'm sure many people would love to stop going to places that allow this insane activity, but it just isn't that realistic. Lots of people take bar jobs, particularly to fund higher education, because the hours fit and you don't need good qualifications to do it. Somebody mentioned loud volume...in many venues which have loud levels of music, the bar staff are provided with ear plugs. I'm thinking gas masks wouldn't be as readily adopted.

If it mattered to anyone, then gas masks would be there already. It doesn't matter except to the exceptionally selfish, and even they aren't bothering with gas masks.

And I don't know who said this, but having a No Smoking section of a pub is as useful as having a No Pissing section of a swimming pool.

I agree. I think places that don't want smoking should not allow it at all. Half-measures are silly.

People who smoke are addicted to cigarettes. The government has them tightly by the bollocks, and they are so confused by the whole matter that they think it has something to do with their rights.

Well, when you tell people that they are now criminals if they do something that has been an assumed right for hundreds of years, then yes, you are taking that right away from them. Things like that should be done rarely, and for extraordinary reasons, with an extraordinary burden of proof attached.

To suggest we're not affecting rights when we criminalize something out of the blue is ridiculous.

Please, spare me.

You can spare yourself. You do it by sticking to those places you like already, rather than mandating that everwhere become more suitable to you under pain of penalty.

for a long time, i was philosophically opposed to smoking bans, for philosophical reasons that i'm sure made sense to me at the time

having toured both coasts in the last few years and gone from nonsmoking to smoking clubs during those tours, and having given the issue quite a bit of thought in addition, i say go for it.

realistically, fuck that shit. when i go to play in a fucking club, i don't want to breathe that shit all night. even if i still SMOKED semi-often, i wouldn't want to breathe that shit all night. if i worked in a goddamn bar _every night_, jesus christ, i would be happy if they made it illegal.

it's a public health issue, period. how many of you guys would defend some other dreadfully unhealthy condition on the grounds that it is 'bad for business' or that the market should somehow regulate conditions magically, on its own? come on.

i agree with angus jung that it makes the most sense as a public health issue for workers. fine. that is more than enough by me. it's so goddamn bad for you. no one has a right to inflict tobacco smoke on other people. the inconvenience should lie on the person doing something destructive, and smoking is destructive. i say this having smoked a half-dozen cigarettes this past weekend, albeit my first ones in over a year. in a bar, at that.

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tmidgett wrote:i say this having smoked a half-dozen cigarettes this past weekend, albeit my first ones in over a year. in a bar, at that.

Dude, that's crazy.